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Importance of frequent vs rarer words?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
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 Message 17 of 81
08 June 2015 at 1:07pm | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
Well, you might as well get easily into a situation where a "rare" word will be necessary and
you'll wish you had learnt it beforehand. Learning when you already are in the situation is sometimes
embarrassing, not practical, sometimes it can cause troubles. It might not be blazer but many other words. I'd
say every learner is the best judge of what they are likely to need. Really, the vocabulary you need in a foreign
language, as an advanced learner, is quite the same as the one you use in your native language and that means a
ton of not that frequent words.

So, my position is quite the oposite: yes, build large vocabulary including "rare" words before you actually need
them. At least if you want to speak the language on a higher level than touristy beginner smalltalk.

...

I want to address this hoary issue of so-called touristy beginner smalltalk and a large vocabulary. There is this
idea that unless one knows a lot of words, including rare words, one is confined to talking like a tourist or a
bumbling beginner. Nothing can be further from the truth.

How many advanced learners of a language can have a 10-minute informal conversation with a native speaker
complete with idioms, puns and jokes? All with great accent, perfect grammar and good fluency.

I believe that this is more difficult than reading a paper at a scientific meeting where you've had weeks to prepare
and rehearse your speech with a tutor.

I think the reason we tend to dismiss small talk is that we can't do it. It's very challenging. It goes to the very
heart of mastering the spoken language. There's no safety net. You can't look things up in the dictionary or the
conjugation tables. All that huge vocabulary is of no use if you are stumbling over little things like the
prepositions or grammatical gender. You're on the spot.

Small talk deserves a lot of respect.    
4 persons have voted this message useful



chaotic_thought
Diglot
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 Message 18 of 81
08 June 2015 at 1:17pm | IP Logged 
I think people get confused here. The point of learning common words is to make communication easier and more effective. But it's hard to describe "how many" or "which words" you really need to accomplish this.

For example, if you're a customer in a hardware store, there's no reason to know ALL of the names of the items, or even most of them. I don't know that stuff in my own language. Generally I just say something like, "Mr. Store Clerk, what is that tool that looks like a hammer? I think I need one of those." Notice, however, that as a customer, there does exist some kind of "minimum vocabulary" that is required here. For instance, if you didn't know the names of ANYTHING, then you'll probably run into problems. For example, if you don't even know what a hammer is, or a saw, or an axe, or wood, or metal, then you won't even be able to describe what you want using a basic expression such as "a metal object that looks like a small hammer, that I saw next to the wood".

On the other hand, if you are Mr. Store Clerk, then knowing the names of most of the items IS going to help your communication. This is because someone may ask you, and if you can't name them, you will appear to them like you don't know what you're doing.

As another example, say you start reading an introductory book on calculus. In this book, certain uncommon words will undoubtedly appear such as "differential", "infinitesimal", "function argument", "transcendental", etc. If you happen to have heard of these things before you begin reading the book, great! But if you haven't, you'll get absolutely no advantage by trying to "learn" them beforehand. These words and others like it are going to be described in the book itself, anyway. You'll learn them as you go, just like the customer going through the hardware store.

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Serpent
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 19 of 81
08 June 2015 at 3:05pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
I want to address this hoary issue of so-called touristy beginner smalltalk and a large vocabulary. There is this idea that unless one knows a lot of words, including rare words, one is confined to talking like a tourist or a bumbling beginner. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Let's not rehash it over and over. Using a small vocabulary well is such an art that for most learners it's not worth the trouble.
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garyb
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 Message 20 of 81
08 June 2015 at 4:07pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:

How many advanced learners of a language can have a 10-minute informal conversation
with a native speaker
complete with idioms, puns and jokes? All with great accent, perfect grammar and good
fluency.


This may be "smalltalk" but it's a world apart from "touristy beginner smalltalk", and
I don't think that anybody is denying that it's difficult and that it requires a great
knowledge of the language, including vocabulary.

My main goal is to use languages socially, and a large part of that is of course
interactions like the one described. For this, a mastery of frequent words and a solid
understanding and knowledge of less frequent ones are clearly both important. I don't
understand why people debate the topic as if it were one versus the other.
5 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 21 of 81
08 June 2015 at 4:21pm | IP Logged 
This discussion was going swimmingly until we were rudely interrupted, once again, by a brazen attempt at
self-promotion. Back to the thread.

chaotic_thought wrote:
I think people get confused here. The point of learning common words is to make
communication easier and more effective. But it's hard to describe "how many" or "which words" you really need
to accomplish this.

For example, if you're a customer in a hardware store, there's no reason to know ALL of the names of the items,
or even most of them. I don't know that stuff in my own language. Generally I just say something like, "Mr. Store
Clerk, what is that tool that looks like a hammer? I think I need one of those." Notice, however, that as a
customer, there does exist some kind of "minimum vocabulary" that is required here. For instance, if you didn't
know the names of ANYTHING, then you'll probably run into problems. For example, if you don't even know what
a hammer is, or a saw, or an axe, or wood, or metal, then you won't even be able to describe what you want
using a basic expression such as "a metal object that looks like a small hammer, that I saw next to the wood".

On the other hand, if you are Mr. Store Clerk, then knowing the names of most of the items IS going to help your
communication. This is because someone may ask you, and if you can't name them, you will appear to them like
you don't know what you're doing.

As another example, say you start reading an introductory book on calculus. In this book, certain uncommon
words will undoubtedly appear such as "differential", "infinitesimal", "function argument", "transcendental", etc. If
you happen to have heard of these things before you begin reading the book, great! But if you haven't, you'll get
absolutely no advantage by trying to "learn" them beforehand. These words and others like it are going to be
described in the book itself, anyway. You'll learn them as you go, just like the customer going through the
hardware store.

The big advantage of learning vocabulary "as you go" is that you observe it being used and thus have a better
chance of remembering how to use it, as opposed to trying to learn the words just by themselves. This is how we
acquire that basic technical vocabulary that is mentioned in the post above. At an early age, we were introduced
to words like hammer, screwdriver, drill, saw, etc. because these things are pervasive in out culture. Those
people who are really interested in this area will learn to differentiate the many types of saws and drills.

Edited by s_allard on 08 June 2015 at 4:27pm

1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 22 of 81
08 June 2015 at 4:36pm | IP Logged 
garyb wrote:
s_allard wrote:

How many advanced learners of a language can have a 10-minute informal conversation
with a native speaker
complete with idioms, puns and jokes? All with great accent, perfect grammar and good
fluency.


This may be "smalltalk" but it's a world apart from "touristy beginner smalltalk", and
I don't think that anybody is denying that it's difficult and that it requires a great
knowledge of the language, including vocabulary.

My main goal is to use languages socially, and a large part of that is of course
interactions like the one described. For this, a mastery of frequent words and a solid
understanding and knowledge of less frequent ones are clearly both important. I don't
understand why people debate the topic as if it were one versus the other.


I tend to agree. I think that the ability to make interesting small talk is just as important as the ability to talk
about lofty subjects. The issue that I was addressing is the idea that if you don't know rare words, you will be
confined to talking "touristy beginner smalltalk", I think it all depends on what you are talking about. A lot of
small talk can be very banal and not require a lot of specialized terms, but that doesn't make it less challenging.
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6357 days ago

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 Message 23 of 81
08 June 2015 at 4:51pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
The issue that I was addressing is the idea that if you don't know rare words, you will be confined to talking "touristy beginner smalltalk", I think it all depends on what you are talking about. A lot of small talk can be very banal and not require a lot of specialized terms, but that doesn't make it less challenging.

There's a logical fail here somewhere. (Besides, I don't think anyone really argued that we need *rare* words, just less common ones.)
And there was no self-promotion. wikia is not something mine, just something I put a lot of effort into. Just a reminder which arguments we've already covered ad nauseam.

Edited by Serpent on 08 June 2015 at 5:03pm

6 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6357 days ago

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 Message 24 of 81
09 June 2015 at 6:53am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
(Besides, I don't think anyone really argued that we need *rare* words, just less common ones.)

Although to be fair the original poster did use the the word "rarer" in the subject line.

I wonder if that illustrates the problem, actually? It doesn't seem to be so much about the words themselves but the usage? For example, maybe there's nothing 100% wrong about saying "frequent/rarer words" (although that comparative looks dubious to me), but the usual ways to express these concepts are "common vocabulary" (vs uncommon), "specialized words", "limited vocabulary" and I'd even say that in the respective contexts "infrequent" sounds much more natural than "frequent". In this kind of discussions it's also common to use words like "synonym", "suffice/sufficient" and even simply "enough", which I'm sure you know, but didn't think of using. You also appear to underuse abstract words like somewhat, anyhow, everyone (mostly pronouns/adverbs I suppose). Even about (not in the direct meaning, of course).

We've all been there; I was SO awkward 8 years ago! Reading and writing took care of that for me - mostly fanfiction and other online activities, actually. I've read embarrassingly few books in English.

Over the years, I did learn some new words, but most of all I've done thousands of google searches, trying to find the most natural wording (and I still do that a lot, even when I tweet). I saw which of the words I knew were bookish or formal (and I continued to use many of them anyway - I was developing my quirky style). And although I obviously didn't think in Russian and then translate, I've learned to spot those instances where my thought process still remains Russian (or even Finnish). With enough vocabulary, almost anything can be re-worded and re-thought. The key is using that vocabulary.

You also appear to have a similar problem. Maybe I'm being pedantic here, but to me "written and spoken understanding of English" sounds a bit off (although the full sentence looked impressive). This mixes understanding and production; the usual terms are, of course, reading and listening comprehension (which you did use at one point). A related issue is how English verbs its nouns and adjectives, and vice versa. In many cases, there's no direct equivalent, and you just learn to use an adjective + to be instead of a verb, or similar. But even when there's an equivalent, often two languages will prefer different parts of speech for describing the same concept. IMO, generally you'll want to pick the most basic word and build the phrase around it. (If this was too abstract, I mean things like "to be hungry" vs "to have hunger" - in Russian you'd normally say "I want/need to eat", btw :)))

In your case, an additional challenge is that English has lots of loan words from French, but many of them are uncommon (or less common), formal etc. But you're not alone - millions of Romance language speakers face this problem when learning English, especially French speakers. Perhaps there are some specific resources like "how not to sound formal in English" or some lists of words that aren't actual false friends but should be used with caution?

Finally, although I tend to think that phrasal verbs are overrated, I've not found a single one while skimming through your posts (edit: found a couple of expressions involving "out"). It's often indeed easier to learn specific verbs than phrasal ones (especially those based on the same verb and different prepositions), but they're an instant way to sound more natural. And that's one topic there's no shortage of resources on.

I also have to admit that your posts make me wonder whether you're trying hard to show us your best English or that's really the most natural way for you to write. I guess my general advice to you would be to focus on precision and getting your message across. Simplify before you amplify ;)

I sincerely hope I've caused no offence by my analysis. I just thought it was important to point this out. Basically, my impression is that you already know more than enough words, but you might not always use them effectively and appropriately.

Edited by Serpent on 09 June 2015 at 7:15am



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