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Importance of frequent vs rarer words?

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Serpent
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 Message 33 of 81
09 June 2015 at 5:22pm | IP Logged 
When you ignore posts, please do everyone a favour and ignore them completely, instead of making remarks that contribute nothing to the thread. Or, you know, address the responses you get, regardless of who they come from.

Serpent wrote:
s_allard wrote:
The issue that I was addressing is the idea that if you don't know rare words, you will be confined to talking "touristy beginner smalltalk", I think it all depends on what you are talking about. A lot of small talk can be very banal and not require a lot of specialized terms, but that doesn't make it less challenging.

There's a logical fail here somewhere.

And of course you'll never explain how "small talk is challenging" can prove that "if you don't know rare words, you won't be confined to touristy beginner small talk". Pointing this out is a contribution, although admittedly I might have been a pedantic captain obvious here.

Edited by Serpent on 09 June 2015 at 5:26pm

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Cavesa
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 Message 34 of 81
09 June 2015 at 5:28pm | IP Logged 
I think chaotic thought expressed it pretty fine. You are likely to need basic words related to fields you are not exactly passionate about but not all the vocabulary your lists are likely to include. Iversen's post about making the words "ring a bell" is a good thought.

I just wonder why we are having the same discussions over and over, now even including the same old example: the beginning of Harry Potter. And again, one of the main points being the "thank you very much" irony. This has already been discussed, understanding this is generally no problem for people with sense of humour based on similar cultural/linguistical foundation. The languages I am learning are european and I have no trouble understanding irony and sarcasm like that in any of them as soon as I have no major problem with grammar + vocabulary of a particular text. But I can imagine someone from a very different literary and cultural background might have harder time. If I ever get to learning a very different language with a very different cultural background (such as Japanese or Arabic), I may suddenly have hard time laughing at the right moments, true.

Some people will just have problems understanding jokes because they don't have sense of humour even in their native language. Jokes and such things are not only matter of language ability, it's where personality comes in.

I was under the impression Lucie wasn't talking in her original post about not being exactly sure about 40th meaning of "to go" in a particular context but more about every day words that just don't happen to be priority of most media and learning sources. I wish I could find again a great older thread about vocabulary where someone, I think Iversen, put a link to a study about exactly what we've been discussing. The study included estimate numbers and the kinds of words learners tend to struggle with. And one of the outcomes was along the lines of "learners know technical and literary vocabulary, they don't know lots of words the native consider to be basic knowledge despite not using them that often".

I tried to find the thread but failed. If anyone had a link, I'd be interested in rereading the study, please.
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s_allard
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 Message 35 of 81
09 June 2015 at 5:51pm | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
...

I was under the impression Lucie wasn't talking in her original post about not being exactly sure about 40th
meaning of "to go" in a particular context but more about every day words that just don't happen to be priority of
most media and learning sources. ....


I admit that this interpretation of the OP is possible. I had gone by this statement:

Lucie Tellier wrote:
.... I've realised today that while I know some words that are rare, my understanding of
some of the most frequent words is still fuzzy... or nonexistent.

....

So, are we talking about the most frequent words, i.e. those that would be found in "most media and learning
sources" or other common words that are not a priority in the same media and learning sources? But that begs
the question: How can words be every day words and not a priority in the media and learning sources?

This is why I had lamented that we didn't have concrete examples from the OP. Then I wouldn't have had to trot
out that tired example from Harry Potter.
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garyb
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 Message 36 of 81
09 June 2015 at 6:01pm | IP Logged 
If other people's replies count as "nastiness", then labelling a post as "laughable" and "hogwash" definitely does, and perhaps making a big point of how you don't read certain people's posts because they're not up to your standards does too. Claiming it was sarcasm isn't much of a defence.

Anyway, this is a thread about the importance of frequent versus rarer (or less frequent or whatever) words. The title says it. I couldn't think of a more appropriate place to bring up ideas like the high-proficiency kernel.

The fact that the same answers keep coming up again and again isn't the problem as much as a symptom of the real problem: the same questions keep coming up again and again. Perhaps the moderators need to be more strict about people who come along and start discussions on subjects that have already been discussed ad infinitum, especially if they don't pertain to the particular learner's situation and goals. This and another recent thread by the same poster started as very general questions about vocabulary, inviting these sorts of arguments that tend to go round in circles, and game-changing details about the poster's level and needs were only revealed later on.

The Wikia is another good idea for summing up the debates that arise repeatedly, and I thought the kernel article on that was quite a balanced statement of the idea and the arguments for and against.
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Serpent
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 Message 37 of 81
09 June 2015 at 6:06pm | IP Logged 
I think some learners may have a sense of humour but treat their reading too much like studying. They read too mechanically and focus on the vocabulary and grammar, immediately worrying about the things they don't know. If reading is a torture, you won't notice the fun parts unless your teacher points them out.

I definitely don't think the OP is like that, but maybe sometimes she (?) worries too much about being able to translate everything etc.

I've not been able to find the thread you mean (Cavesa), but it must be tagged with vocabulary learning? You can then google-search by thread title.

And hm, so do you think the OP's problem are specific groups of words like plants, household items etc? Who knows... :) If so, I recommend the game Criminal Case. I used to struggle with this kind of words but not anymore :P

Edited by Serpent on 09 June 2015 at 6:07pm

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Cavesa
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 Message 38 of 81
09 June 2015 at 7:30pm | IP Logged 
The problem with finding the article is the huge amount of vocabulary themed threads and my bad memory. G-search gives me a ton of results and I would need weeks to get through all of that as I cannot remember anything specific enough to narrow the search. The main reason why I'd like to reread the study was exactly making more system in the "terminology". There was a better word than "everyday" for the words I mean.

How can something be everyday vocabulary but not used that often in media and courses: It is a word every native knows and uses without problem when the need arises but it is something not worth writing books about usually. Lots of the words, when being taught, fall into the category of unpopular wordlists most learners skip, such as the working tools. Many learners do not differentiate between the useful and useless part of those lists and the courses are more and more hesitant to explicitly teach vocabulary, most class aimed courses no longer offer wordlists at all and the overall approach to vocabulary learning has changed. Some words are even not included in courses at all for various reasons.. My favourite example is "a hygienic pad". Every native knows the word and, when shopping in a non-supermarket shop, will just say it. Yet, no course I've used so far mentioned it and normal novels and movies are unlikely to include it of course. It is just an example but I think you get the idea.

I am talking about vocabulary you don't read or use every day but you might get to need it at any moment. Other examples like "heating", "screwdriver", "lightbulb", "bow". From my experience, many intermediate learners will have easier time discussing ecology and global warming than putting together a shopping list or calling a plumber.

I totally agree with garyb's post. Some of the names used for other posters and opinions are totally not alright but I'd say most of us willingly took the risk when we got to participate in another thread with s_allard. I trust our moderators to step in when the offences cross the line they know better than I.

I don't think the problem is with questions being asked again and again. There are more subjects with repeated and similar questions. The problem is that the vocabulary threads have been all turning to one very similar thread lately. We start with varying questions, that just happen to be intertwined (just like most threads on assimil, most threads on grammar or most threads on tv series). Than some members turn the thread into the usual doom and the rest of us fails at just leaving the sinking boat on time.
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Serpent
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 Message 39 of 81
09 June 2015 at 7:38pm | IP Logged 
garyb wrote:
If other people's replies count as "nastiness", then labelling a post as "laughable" and "hogwash" definitely does, and perhaps making a big point of how you don't read certain people's posts because they're not up to your standards does too. Claiming it was sarcasm isn't much of a defence.

Thank you!

Quote:
Anyway, this is a thread about the importance of frequent versus rarer (or less frequent or whatever) words. The title says it. I couldn't think of a more appropriate place to bring up ideas like the high-proficiency kernel.

I don't actually mind bringing up the kernel. I only mind having the same discussions ad nauseam. If s_allard has any new points to make, I'm totally interested.

Quote:
The fact that the same answers keep coming up again and again isn't the problem as much as a symptom of the real problem: the same questions keep coming up again and again. Perhaps the moderators need to be more strict about people who come along and start discussions on subjects that have already been discussed ad infinitum, especially if they don't pertain to the particular learner's situation and goals. This and another recent thread by the same poster started as very general questions about vocabulary, inviting these sorts of arguments that tend to go round in circles, and game-changing details about the poster's level and needs were only revealed later on.

Well, tbh I wouldn't mind abstract discussions within each different framework, without questioning it. Where those who think counting the vocab or explicit vocab learning is useless can just stay quiet or leave the thread.

But I agree that nowadays it seems impossible to have such a discussion, and we should encourage practical questions, rather than the abstract "I don't want to make it about me, just tell me what you think in general". Or at least post an article and ask for opinions, though this also often tends to get nasty.

Quote:
The Wikia is another good idea for summing up the debates that arise repeatedly, and I thought the kernel article on that was quite a balanced statement of the idea and the arguments for and against.

Challenge accepted ;) I've started a thread in collaborative writing.

edit: pad is a great example indeed ;) I've actually developed a glossary for menstrual cup users, btw. Admittedly it's much more useful for native speakers of Romance languages or those whose English is at least intermediate.

Edited by Serpent on 09 June 2015 at 8:01pm

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s_allard
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 Message 40 of 81
09 June 2015 at 8:10pm | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
..

How can something be everyday vocabulary but not used that often in media and courses: It is a word every
native knows and uses without problem when the need arises but it is something not worth writing books about
usually. Lots of the words, when being taught, fall into the category of unpopular wordlists most learners skip,
such as the working tools. Many learners do not differentiate between the useful and useless part of those lists
and the courses are more and more hesitant to explicitly teach vocabulary, most class aimed courses no longer
offer wordlists at all and the overall approach to vocabulary learning has changed. Some words are even not
included in courses at all for various reasons.. My favourite example is "a hygienic pad". Every native knows the
word and, when shopping in a non-supermarket shop, will just say it. Yet, no course I've used so far mentioned it
and normal novels and movies are unlikely to include it of course. It is just an example but I think you get the
idea.

I am talking about vocabulary you don't read or use every day but you might get to need it at any moment. Other
examples like "heating", "screwdriver", "lightbulb", "bow". From my experience, many intermediate learners will
have easier time discussing ecology and global warming than putting together a shopping list or calling a
plumber.

...

The problem here seems to be the definition of every day vocabulary. We are told that, despite it's label, this is
not vocabulary that you use every day but "you might get to need at any moment." Examples include hygienic
pad, heating, screwdriver, lightbulb and bow. How common are these kinds of words in the media and
in learning materials? I don't know about the media in other countries but where I live the specific words given
here are extremely common. One can hardly watch two hours of television without seeing advertisements for
products that could be called hygienic pads.

We are also told that these words are not to be found in learning materials? I would suggest that it depends on
the learning materials and their audience. Certain learning materials meant for secondary schools would
undoubtedly not include certain kinds of vocabulary deemed unsuitable for young minds, especially in prudish
North America.

For adult audiences, there are not the same limitations but I do think most materials still avoid some subjects
that are considered a bit sensitive. This is where thematic materials are interesting. And today one can easily find
all so-called sensitive words on the internet.

The bigger question is how frequent are these every day words. If they are truly common, then they must show
up on some frequency list. Of course, it depends on the sources used for the lists. For English we now have lists
based on informal conversations. If heating, screwdriver, lightbulb and bow don't show up on a list of the 5000
or 10000 most common words in English, we have to ask ourselves how important are those words.

For the designers of learning materials, frequency lists are a basic tool. If the words given above don't make the
cut, it's certainly because other words are judged more important for the learner.

Edited by s_allard on 09 June 2015 at 8:12pm



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