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What to Study While Waiting to Travel | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| issemiyaki Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4811 days ago 38 posts - 58 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 1 of 10 06 June 2015 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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What to study?
I bring this up as it may shed some light on how to get the most of our language studies while waiting to travel to that dream country. I would LOVE to get your feedback on this. Currently, I’m using Linguaphone French right now (1970), and loving it. But, just when I thought I was doing so wonderfully, I went to read the newspaper in French, and was smacked in the face with how much I still did not know. I mean, come on, it’s the newspaper, I said. I mean, everybody can read the newspaper. So, after all this studying, and Assimil, etc., I still had trouble reading the following sentence in a newspaper article: “Un homme suspecté d’être l’auteur de la tuerie qui a fait quatre morts au Musée juif de Belgique, à Bruxelles, a été arrêté.” Translation: A man suspected of being behind the killing that took the lives of 4 people at the Jewish Museum in Brussells, Belgium, has been arrested. This is a very basic sentence, in general. It didn’t come from Le Monde either. It came from a daily newspaper that uses the most basic vocabulary, and yet, I was still stumped. I was pissed. So, it’s time to seriously re-think my strategy. I understand Linguaphone is great and I will continue to use it. But since I don’t have to worry about, at least right now, buying cheese in Paris, or renting a car or an apartment in Leon, I’m going to be focusing on news articles. That’s what I encounter more often anyway, and I can see words and phrases that I'm learning used over and over again. This is a watershed moment for me. I’m not sure what is says, but I feel like I’m taking more ownership of my language learning and I’m moving in the right direction by immersing myself in "native" content. But then again, what good is it to talk about the stock market, politics, and everything else under the sun, if you don’t even know what “le rideau,” means. (Translation: the curtain) That word comes up several times in Linguaphone. LOL. Love to get your feedback on this. Edited by issemiyaki on 06 June 2015 at 5:25pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3324 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 2 of 10 06 June 2015 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Can you mention why you think you are "stumped" by this sentence? Was it the structure of the sentence. Was there some vocabulary you didn't understand? Shouldn't you actually being saying "At first I was stumped by this sentence, but now when I read it again, it does makes sense." I.e. you learned something, and I would mark that as a win, not a loss. Newspaper articles are not known as the easiest types of texts to read in general. It might be helpful to think of "reading newspapers" as a separate skill in the language along with "reading fiction" or "reading cookbooks". Even with a good base in the language, expect that you'll need to practice reading these types of specialized texts for at least some non-trivial amount of time before you can really feel comfortable with them. For example, there are some expressions which are basically ONLY used in newspapers or ONLY used in recipes and cookbooks, etc. Edited by chaotic_thought on 06 June 2015 at 5:44pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5044 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 3 of 10 06 June 2015 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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With my Romance language knowledge plus Haitian Creole and my native English, I was able to understand the headline you quoted. ( I don't speak or study French, but I can understand a lot of it, at least in writing.) What threw you off? Tuerie? Juif? Your profile says your Spanish is native fluency. Are you bilingual? In other words, is French your first attempt at self-studying a foreign language? This could help give you better responses.
Anyway, you've hit upon what I consider to be a major defect in following a "course-heavy" approach. No course is all inclusive. They can't be. The language is too big. Courses are useful, no doubt about it, but they aren't the one size fits all solution for everyone. They are designed by professionals but most often, are designed towards the lowest common denominator. Course authors tend to make assumptions about what the learner should learn, when the learner should learn it and in what sequence. I have little patience for this. Not depending on a course and using multiple tracks tends to help increase my vocabulary quite quickly. That's why I follow a multi-track approach because I have found it to be more effective than a course alone for me. If I were to start an indo-european language, I would choose two good, complimentary, courses, i.e.: one textbook/cd course and one audio course like Pimsleur. At the same time, I would start trying to puzzle out the language on my own by adding TL accounts to follow on Twitter, starting to read in TL (breaking in gently) and listening from the beginning. I like to speak as soon as I can have something to speak about. Some people reject my approach because they "don't" have the time. If, they are studying multiple languages simultaneously every day, they're right. A course is probably all they can handle. If one is trying to learn one language, there are all kinds of hidden moments throughout the day available to go through one's twitter feed, puzzle out a tweet or a paragraph or two, listen to/watch a short news item, or a song, etc. Some learners don't consider puzzling out a short native text to be "study". Perhaps they are logging their hours towards some quantity goal or even a challenge. My contention is that if you are spending time with the language actively, then it's study- whether or not it's with a course. I don't do challenges here. I don't count my hours of studying. I don't count words. I look at how much I can understand and produce- I know it when I see it. My approach is probably too "zen-like" for those who must have structure and hand-holding, but it has worked well for me in my languages. I don't eschew courses, I just don't make them my overwhelming focus when learning a language. The synergy that comes with a multi-track approach makes each component more effective together than each one could be separately- the sum total is greater than the parts. For instance, when I was learning Haitian Creole, I came upon the word "touye" (FR: tuer) quite early from a couple of different resources. For me, that helps it stick better than if I'd only seen it in one place. So, if I were you learning French, I would continue with a course or two and also add in some comprehensible native material. Don't overlook talking to people either, or, writing. I would also leverage my Spanish by looking at bilingual Spanish/French texts in addition to French/English bilingual texts. Whatever you ultimately decide to do, good luck! Edited by iguanamon on 06 June 2015 at 6:30pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 3834 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 4 of 10 06 June 2015 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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I would not be at all surprised if, even upon completion the Linguaphone Complete Beginners to Advanced course, or any similar course, you would still have difficulty reading a newspaper.
Most introductory level language courses focus on a basic vocabulary of about 2,000 words -- which might very well be reduced to 1,000 to 1,500 word families -- to assist a traveller exchange basic "transactional" information in typical situations. The sentence structure in such courses is often relatively simple and the CEFR level achieved rarely surpasses A2. In contrast, reading ALL sections of a newspaper equivalent to, say, the New York Times, could easily require a grasp of 10,000 word families or more, including a very solid grasp of very complex sentence structure; that is, requiring a CEFR level approaching C1 or C2. Here is a LINK to an article on vocabulary and reading: How Much Vocabulary Is Needed?. There are almost unlimited resources available for improving one's French. However, with a view to relieving the "ennui" of studying your chosen language course, and to building your vocabulary across a range of topics, I suggest that you purchase a one-year subscription to the online audio-magazine Think French. The monthly articles are 20 to 25 pages in length and are accompanied by a soundtrack. The articles cover the language, culture, cuisine, geography, history, and historical personages of the French-speaking world, and they include a glossary. The level is A2-B1. The price is quite reasonable considering the quantity of materials. Undoubtedly, someone will chime in "but I found an error, once, in one of the articles". Big deal! I have rarely come across a newspaper or magazine article in English that hasn't contained errors. If you subscribe, be sure to download your MP3 and PDF files to your computer as, once your subscription expires, you will no longer have access to the original files. Edited by Speakeasy on 06 June 2015 at 6:44pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| issemiyaki Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4811 days ago 38 posts - 58 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 5 of 10 06 June 2015 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks you so much for your input!
Clearly, "diversification" is key. There's nothing more gratifying than recognizing a word or a phrase that I learned some place else. So, I'm totally on board with the multi-track approach. @iguanamon - Wouldn't say this is my first attempt at self study. My path to Spanish fluency, a journey that never ends as we all know, has included a mixture of reading on my own, making old-fashioned glossaries (I used to make them by hand about 10 years ago), and watching a lot of television (novelas and noticias). So, it has been a hybrid experience. I also follow several French twitter accounts. Also, you might be really interested in this one. When I speak Spanish, I rarely need to use highly complex structures. And I can talk about the Iran nuclear deal, the Venezuelan crisis, or even the Hilary Clinton e-mail scandal all in Spanish. I think the challenge there is more vocabulary than grammar (unless giving convoluted opinions). But 9 times out of 10, when I'm stumped on something it's because I couldn't UNDERSTAND what was being said, not because I couldn't express myself. This time around with French, I'm a bit wiser I hope. So, the focus is 90% on comprehension and vocabulary building in context, for now. There also appears to be a wave of supporters championing comprehension-heavy learning initially. But thanks to my Spanish, and the 9 months I've been studying French on and off, there are no problems forming basic sentences. The mistakes can be rectified with time. It's the comprehension part that simply can't be faked. This is what my French diet looks like at the moment, and this may change. (I'm always changing.) CLE Compréhension Orale (comes in A1, A2, B1, B2 and C1) (Each book comes with a CD containing 25 short recordings about 2 to 3 minutes each, containing a boatload of info that you will be tested on. The questions are tricky and HIGHLY specific. And either you know it or you dont. There's no way to BS your way through this book, and that's why I love it - becuase it holds you accountable, and it reveals your shortcommings whether you want them revelaed or not. It's a humbling experience. I have a subscription to the French Magazine Bien-Dire. Comes with a CD where you can listen to the articles read out loud. The recording quality is stellar! I also listen to News in Slow French. I have some graded-readers as well, with audio, on my iPad. Not sure if I'll keep plugging away with Linguaphone - at this point it feels more like an obligation. Haven't made a final decision on this one yet; the jury's still out. Thanks again, this was a very fruitful discussion. Thanks for sinking your teeth in it. Edited by issemiyaki on 06 June 2015 at 8:31pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5044 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 6 of 10 06 June 2015 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the background, issemiyaki. Sounds like you have a lot of the multi-track covered. Since you don't like the linguaphone course, have a look at DLI French from the US Defense Language Institute. I downloaded it in case I decide to learn French at some later date. I have gone through DLI Portuguese Basic and DLI Haitian Creole Basic Courses. Both are excellent though somewhat dated. The Portuguese Course is the best course I have ever seen for any language. The French course is designed very similarly- and it's free and legal.
What I liked about DLI is that there are lots of drills, a short dialog with pauses built in to be the first and then the second speaker. There's also a reading with comprehension questions to get you producing output and a grammar explanation and vocabulary after the end of the lesson. English is limited to introductory cues, vocabulary glossary and the grammar explanations. It may interest you. If you follow the link, click on audio and books to download. I jumped in at Vol 4 for Portuguese. No reason or need to start at the beginning if you don't have to do so. I've never been a fan of slow news. You may want to have a look at NHK World Français news. It has a transcript and the items are short. Weekday broadcasts are about 10-15 minutes with consistency in news readers who are native-speakers. Also RFI has Le journal en français facile. I find that daily listening helps tremendously. I do it on my morning walks. Edited by iguanamon on 08 June 2015 at 2:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4791 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 7 of 10 07 June 2015 at 4:49am | IP Logged | ||
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Three questions:
1.when approximately are you leaving for a francophone country? 2.how long will you be staying? (at least whether a few days or weeks or months) 3.purpose? a holiday, uni exchange, job,...? I quite agree with iguanamnon that you might need the multitrack approach, even though I would add that your knowledge of Spanish is a great asset. You do not need to start with a classical bilingual course. I understand why your linguaphone feels like an obligation, not a path forward. A few ideas of mine: 1.Get resources like Grammaire Progressive and Vocabulaire Progressif instead of courses. They are monolingual but your described background sounds like you should have no trouble with that. Ditch the order and importance hierarchy the course creators impose on learners based on their expectations. Learn what you think you are going to need. You've learnt Spanish, use your experience. -I'd say this is a nice grammar minimum for getting to speak (even though really imperfectly) in a month or two: -noun gender and articles, present tense, passee composee, futur proche, imperatif, basic adjective and adverb knowledge and construction, basic sentence construction and question making. If you've got more time, add more pieces to the puzzle. From vocabulary, do the topics you are likely to need during your travels. 2.a nice resource is Communication Progressive, also by CLE. Dialogues from normal situations you are likely to encounter but the book structure is just as free as in the other CLE workbooks, not fixed liked in a normal course. 3.Get the pronunciation right. I found the FSI courses tend to have awesome and detailed pronunciation drills at the beginning. I haven't checked the French one but I was excited by the German and Swedish and heard good things about the French course. 4.Your Spanish knowledge might help you get your comprehension really high before the journey. In just a few months, you could get to tv series and become ready for the reality. A nice resource with tons of listening material for all levels is Frenchpod101.com I totally agree with iguanamnon that listening is not to be underestimated. Your graded readers, cds and so on should prove to be great tools. And your Comprehension books sound exactly like the challenge you'll need. :-) 5.Prepare psychically. It is not a pleasant truth to say but many French switch automatically to English with foreigners, no matter their desire to practice the language and no matter their level of the language. I passed a C2 exam, the natives have no problem with me once we are speaking but still, like 4 out of 5 French will just switch to bad English if they hear my non-francophone family with me or if they are introduced to me as a foreigner. It takes some nerves not to let the natives demotivate you. Be ready, practice your confident body language and the "I can understand you and I am not a moron" face. For me, that has been just as hard as learning the language, truth be told :-D 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| issemiyaki Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4811 days ago 38 posts - 58 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 8 of 10 07 June 2015 at 6:32am | IP Logged | ||
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@Cavesa - I hope to travel to France some time next year. Who knows, maybe I'll be
able to stay long enough to get a master's degree. Keeping my fingers crossed. I also agree with your method of "puzzling" things out, and not falling into the "hierarchy" trap, especially when I can already understand 70 to 80% of most texts without a dictionary anyway. Yes, you're right, the whole damn world wants to speak English. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just wasting my time learning another language. But as far as people wanting to speak English, I don't mind. I know how to handle that. I just speak really quickly with horrible pronunciation, and before you know it they are responding to me in Spanish again. Most people only know enough to spit out a few lines. So, I'll indulge them for a few minutes, make them feel good, and boom, you've got a friend who will be willing to speak even more French to you. @iguanamon -I'm surprised you don't like News in Slow French. I think they are one of the BEST resource out there. My whole gripe with much of French news, in general, is that it's TOO international, so much so that it's hard to find out what's going on IN FRANCE. And it's too focused on politicians. As if what's happening to regular, every-day people doesn't matter. Whatever happens to a politician is what generates a story. Meanwhile, you have a young girl who falls form a 2nd story window, and that's mentioned somewhere at the end of the newscast as if it's some side note. Drives me fricking crazy. Hello!!!! A child, get it? A child fell from a window. Why? How can this be prevented? Who's responsible? Nope, no answers, nobody cares. Instead, we're fed the itinerary of every politician in parliament, and every stop the president made over the last 24 hours is analyzed with a fine-toothed comb. There's a time for that, but the nightly news should be about the people. I'm not saying news is wonderful in the US, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting, and for foreigners, it's a treasure chest of information. Spanish news from Latin America is a little better. When you cover crimes, mayhem, accidents, it really gives your vocabulary a work out, and you get to hear REGULAR people talking about major incidents in their lives. In the US, the NBC Nightly News or ABC World News or CBS Evening News are as good as they get. The English is impeccable and you get a slice of American life all in 30 minutes. Wish I could find a good newscast that could give me a good slice of French life (the good and the bad) within 30 minutes. I'll keep looking. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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