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Sick and tired of SRS part 2 | ||
Tags: Spaced Repetition (SRS) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6485 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 41 18 June 2015 at 6:23am | IP Logged | |||||
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When I spoke about dropping the English translation I was referring to the sample sentence, not to the target word (or word combination). In SRS terms that would mean that I would write
sentencesentencesentencesentence WORD sentencesentencesentencesentence in the target language on the front page of a card, but only TranslatedWORD in my base language on its back side. The translation should render one or maybe two core meanings - not everything else that might pop into your head. After all you don't use SRS to sit and ponder over each card. You want to check your recall and understanding of something in a quick and dirty way, and then the whole point is that you should move on to the next card. Furthermore sample sentences are there to make things easier, not to complicate them. If you feel you need a translation of a sample sentence then it is probably too complicated to help you memorize the core word(s). There will of course be exceptions, like if the example contains an idiomatic expression which you want to remember. But then the whole expression deserves its own card - maybe with a comment concerning one or two central words, but then only as comments. Or there may be some grammatical quirk at play which should be studied as such and not as part a vocabulary studying session. If you have found an unnecessary complicated and confusing example, you should either simplify it or discard it. Once you have got the meaning of the word you are trying to learn your sample sentence should be easy to remember and understand - otherwise it isn't serving its purpose. This also applies to grammars. Some grammars contain long and complicated quotes from famous authors. Why? Well, mainly to prove that some phenomenon exists out there in the jungle. Or maybe to make them more entertaining. But for comprehension and memorizing purposes clear, simple examples which illustrate the relevant point and that alone would be much better. Edited by Iversen on 18 June 2015 at 6:54am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5258 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 18 of 41 18 June 2015 at 7:15am | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks for clarifying what you meant Iversen. That makes a lot of sense. I have done what you were pointing out (eliminated sentence translation). My cards are a little different (still very similar)- more along the lines of emk's designs (with translated word in brackets below TL sentence with gap for the word/phrase in question). The issue I'm having difficulty with now is letting go of the English translations further. I"m fine to have this: J'arrive à p____ à soulever mon sac. (hardly, 2) expected typed response: à peine or with 2 examples: J'arrive à p____ à soulever mon sac. (hardly, 2) Elle sait à p____ lire (hardly, barely, 2) but... then I'm wondering if i should be putting in English translation relevant to all similar situations with the nuances of meaning. ie side 2 would include: a peine loc adv hardly, barely, scarcely Like emk said and I think you are getting at and chaotic thought that it's prob unnecessary translation - that all i need is the translations relevant to that word in that sentence. I'm trying I swear, but having a hard time letting go. ------- I think the most recent conlcusion I came to is best- use my Front as my 'clue side'. This would mean half cloze cards are my first go to option, if i don't have any decent sentences for some reason then I could then (and only then) write in those French translations instead of using cloze (due to not being able to), OR synonyms in TL like chaotic though, OR even use a French definition copied and pasted from an FR only dictionary with the word in question even diplayed in context in the dictionary example sentences (this would be like emks recognition cards in a way- simply designed to familiarise myself with the word)..... So my Front is my clue side however I want to design it, however I feel I guess but mainly half cloze sentences. I just need to tell myself I don't need ALL those shades of meaning when translated to English EVEN IF they are synonyms for the same use (and not distinctly different meanings altogether). Keep it brief,simple whatever whatever. I must be insane I keep making changes and really turning back to complicating things.. it's slow my acceptance of such simplification- I really really want to over analyse and I must learn to accept that perfectionism helps me at times (eg accent) but severely limits me at other times (far too complicated cards taking time away from things that matter/are more productive) PM 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6379 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 19 of 41 18 June 2015 at 7:28am | IP Logged | |||||
I think both options are perfectly legitimate. For me a SRS session is pretty similar to a reading session, just with smaller and familiar units. There's no big divide between practising and studying. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5314 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 41 18 June 2015 at 11:32am | IP Logged | |||||
Here's an example of a recognition card. When I was reading Le Déchronologue, I used my ebook reader's highlight feature to mark this sentence, because it contained a weird use of essuyer "wipe". Here, it means something more like "to suffer, to be subjected to". You can see me turning this sentence into a card using my custom web app:
My workflow goes something like this: 1. Highlight sentences while I'm reading, making sure to include plenty of context. 2. Export the sentences from my ereader and upload them to a web app. 3. Look at each sentence, look up any unknown words, and copy and paste a definition or a picture. 4. Import the finished sentences into Anki using a plugin. This process is about 80% "study" time, actively thinking about the word and how it's being used. I do something similar with half-cloze and cloze cards, except the definition or hint goes on the front side. (And yes, as soon as I get caught up on sleep and work, I'm planning to move this software to a new server and open it to the HTLAL community as a public beta. Several HTLAL users gave me a lot of awesome feedback last year, which helped tremendously.) Now, this card is also an interesting example, because it shows what I do about strange, secondary meanings of words: I ignore them until a perfect sentence like this falls into my lap, in which case I might go ahead a make a card. But until I actually run into an example like this, I ignore nuances and secondary meanings ruthlessly. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5258 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 21 of 41 19 June 2015 at 4:51am | IP Logged | |||||
This is a very useful example. Thanks emk. I had a look to see if I could duplicate this process using my SRS program. As you already know my FC SRS system is an app in which I enter directly into my phone. I have a little 'box' of apps in the handy right hand bottom corner of my phone in which I have French dictionaries, Linguee, twitter (for the SC), Podcasts app, kindle reader, ibook reader and so on... I tried your copy and paste method from my Kindle and ibooks app to my FC app. iBooks only allows me to copy PDF material- ebooks don't allow for copying. Kindle does. I can copy a word, phrase, sentence and paste it straight into FC Deluxe by closing the kindle app and opening the FC Deluxe app. NO problemo. I can also copy and paste definitions either from the Kindle dictionary when I go to the 'further details' section of a looked up word, from my French dictionary app, or Le Robert French dictionary app, or Larousse French English dictionary app. So all this copy and pasting is possible for me with relative ease, except for books in iBooks, hopefully that changes otherwise I'll try typing shorter sentences for such entries. I also found the 'if clause' in my FC app. Basically I discovered you can have multiple types of flashcards which can exist within the same deck. Eg I can be tested by typing an answer with all cards from type A, Just view definitions or context with all cards of type B and as an example do multiple choice, or hear the audio or whatever in type C. This allows me now to create three cateogories of cards like yourself emk. It just means I tap twice when creating a card- once on the 'category' section of the card, then again on which category (from my preselected created list) I allocate the card to (so that when I review cards it is presented according to the manner I have designed for that category of cards). My main category will be the half cloze cards in which I type answers and I decided to have the English translations on the back as well which in the case of à peine would be: Front: J'arrive à p____ à soulever mon sac. (hardly, 2) Elle sait à p___ lire. (hardly, barely, 2) Expected typed answer: à peine Back à peine loc adv hardly, barely, scarcely (so I elaborate slightly on the English meaning as seen on the back- I think this could be overkill but I'll fiddle with this later and may scrap it deciding that (hardly, scarcely) on the front are enough. Mind you having it this way means the process is the same as the next type of card below and means i don't have to think too much when entering as all fields are in the same position (English translation entered in field two). The only difference being I add the cloze sentences as an extra field at the end. I think having the fields in the same order of entry simplifies it. A straight translation card will be like this: Front: female dog, bitch TYPED ANSWER: chienne Back: chienne nf female dog, bitch (the back is a little overkill, but since I do have a back I thought I'd keep in line with the same as the other cards in the layout- info is only entered once btw- I don't write female dog, bitch twice as it appears on both sides) Then there are the recognition cards as you would call them. This is a work in progress, completely do-able but not finalised on whether I want them, and if I do, what the layout will be. So that's that! Yeah right... I guess I need to accept that SRS, vocab learning, FCs whatever are not a stagnant thing. I'll always be looking to improve the system for acquiring new vocabulary, but for the duration i've had this topic/thread running I've clearly been going through a 'big overhaul is needed' period. --------- So I also discovered that by duplicating my original 10,000 word deck so I have a second deck exactly the same, then creating a "combination deck" within the app that I tell it to combine the 10,000 deck with the new deck with all the new styled cards listed above. Then while reviewing from within the new combination deck I can go through and test the new cards in all the new manner/layout while reviewing the old cards in their given manner. As the old cards never had an assigned category I just designed a layout for 'unassigned' cards that suits them. Furthermore I discoverd that if I press exclude on any given individual (likely old) card while reviewing (on a bucket load of cards as I which I now deem unworthy due to being too easy/known/complicated) I can then after a study session/a week/some time period go into a view mode of all cards, filter for 'excluded' cards and delete them! They get deleted from the duplicate 10,000 deck, so they wont'show up again in my combination deck either. In this process I get rid of the junk while still having my old 10,000 deck remain intact collecting dust, get to study new cards and keep all the various methods of study depending on the type of card that comes up. There's actually no delete function with multiple 'filtered' cards that I could find. I just created a new empty deck called "La poubelle" and move the excluded cards to there for later deletion of the entire "poubelle deck" 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5258 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 22 of 41 19 June 2015 at 5:41am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'd like to one more question actually... (of anyone)
I know it's basically been concluded already, but, I can't seem to let go of my perfectionism and I just need someone to convince me that this is indeed overkill. example: Front: Verser des a____. (deposit) Verser 300 euros d'a____. (deposit) Typed expected answer: arrhes Back /ar/ nfpl deposit (note this field is same as "(deposit)" on front but entered separately- Here it is the same, but, take a look at this card (both cards created recently): Front Verser un a____ de. (deposit) 3,000 euros d'a____. (deposit) Typed expected answer: accompte Back accompte nm down payment, deposit, instalment, part payment Okay so the difference in meaning(s) can be seen in the translation field appearing on the back of the card. This is the filed I'm unsure whether i should be entering for all cloze cards. It has been said that I should learn the meaning of the word from the context only and not worry about the 'noise'. Okay in that case I would learn both arrhes and accompte mean deposit but would be unaware of the extra meanings attributed to accompte. Do I trust that I will learn these in time? I mean I"m highly unlikely to learn these subtleties/nuances over time. Down payment and deposit might be similar but instalment and part payment aren't the same as deposit. Do I wait until I expect to learn these different meanings and then enter some cloze cards for those meanings then and therefore skip entering English translations altogether (the term in brackets on the front will suffice?). Would I in fact be saving myself further difficulty down the path by learning this word has some variations to its meaning now and take them on board in a broad sense and then not need futher cloze cards in future? PM (sorry it's proving tricky to let go of extra translations for the cloze cards) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3324 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 23 of 41 19 June 2015 at 11:51am | IP Logged | |||||
The most I would put on the back is the dictionary form. When you're going through flash-cards as you've presented them, all you really need to do is to type the word 'accompte'. If you can type it - it means you remembered it, so you discard it. If you couldn't remember it - then it goes shuffled back into the deck to repeat. Keep it as simple as possible. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5258 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 24 of 41 19 June 2015 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks chaotic thought I'm just unclear about what you mean by 'dictionary form'. The four words on the back of my example for accompte below 'nm' are from the FR-EN dictionary. Or do u mean the monolingual definition? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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