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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| soclydeza85 Senior Member United States Joined 3702 days ago 357 posts - 502 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 1 of 4 17 June 2015 at 4:12am | IP Logged |
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I'm learning Bokmål, which I understand to only use the common and neuter genders (I could be wrong, I'm kind of confused by the whole thing), but would it be a good idea to get used to actually using the masculine and feminine separately? What would be considered more "properly spoken" Norwegian? How is it looked at when someone uses the common gender versus masc. and fem. separately?
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| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4567 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 2 of 4 17 June 2015 at 9:04am | IP Logged |
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Actually, modern Bokmål does recognize three genders, while also recognizing the "common" gender forms as a valid alternative. The strictly two-gendered kind of language that Aftenposten is written in is actually more conservative than the official Bokmål standard and is known as "Riksmål". I've heard that there are people who actually talk like that, but unless you're in Bergen you're much more likely to interact with speakers who distinguish three genders, although the number of feminine words the speakers use will vary depending on region, class and even political affiliation. In general it's a good idea to learn about all three genders. When I was studying in Oslo the textbook we used, Norsk på 1-2-3, taught all three genders, so I assumed that this was the norm for Bokmål learning materials aimed at non-native learners.
I also remember reading an Aftenposten opinion piece by a non-native speaker who recalls that when she wrote her written assignments in the same style as Aftenposten her teacher would "correct" her to three-gendered forms. When she asked why this was wrong when the country's largest newspaper writes like that she was told something to the effect that it isn't exactly wrong, but it just looks weird coming from a foreigner. The author then goes on to detail the intricacies of Norwegian language politics and how the use of supposedly equivalent standard forms signals very different things about the speaker/writer. I wouldn't worry too much about all those intricacies as a beginner, but I think this does illustrate that avoiding the feminine might not be the best idea. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4434 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 3 of 4 17 June 2015 at 9:29am | IP Logged |
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I understand that you are confused, because in Bokmål you have the option of using "common" and neuter genders, or masculine, female and neuter. Using only common gender, equal to the masucline form, is considered more conservative, or posh, and I think most Norwegians who speak a dialect close to Bokmål will use the feminine form, although it may vary to what extent. Remember that Bokmål is a written standard, and it is mostly people from the Oslo area who speak "bokmålish".
Personally I speak a rather conservative Oslo dialect, so I don't use the feminine gender that often, but even in conservative bokmål there are certain words for which it would be strange tu use the masculine. To complicate matters, some people will use masculine indefinite article, but use feminine for the definite form. For example: Hytte (cottage): en hytte - hytta Ku (cow) - en ku - kua Obviously, in both cases you have the option of saying ei hytte, ei ku. For you as a learner, the advantage of sticking to commen and neuter only is that you have one less distinction to worry about, but you may sound overly "bookish" in some cases. Edit: I didn't see vonPeterhof's reply before I posted. I basically agree, but I must say I find it strange that a teacher corrected someone writing in "Aftenposten" style. It is not only Aftenposten who uses rather conservative or moderate bokmål - a lot of contemporary novelists do as well, including Jo Nesbø. It probably says more about the teacher than anything else. The problem is in fact that language and politics have been closely related in Norway for at least 100 years. And in particular with regard to the way you speak "bokmål". When I was young and lived in Oslo, we used to say that you could tell from the way someone spoke which political party they voted. The more the use of feminine gender, the more leftwing the person would be. Edited by Ogrim on 17 June 2015 at 10:15am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4316 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 4 of 4 17 June 2015 at 1:34pm | IP Logged |
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I would say that the advanced learner should know which words are feminine, but use them
to the extend it is appropriate in a specific situation. The problem with all the freedom is that the use of feminina is not consistent in all the language you get exposed to - so you'll end up mostly using the utrum because this is a good fallback when in doubt. And gender isn't easy to remember even when it is used consistently in the input you get. From that perspective, starting with Nynorsk might be the better option, because it is consistent in this respect. You'll just have a hard time getting learning material for it... it's an unfortunate situation. Edited by daegga on 17 June 2015 at 1:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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