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Is Arabic underestimated?

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hp230
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 Message 49 of 75
11 July 2015 at 3:12am | IP Logged 
ScottScheule wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
I wonder: what do you think is gonna be the linguistic outcome of the today's crisis? Will millions of Arabs exchange the language for a better life in Europe and therefore diminish the Arabic native base with all the consequences?
As large crowds of Arabs are moving to other Arabic countries and more crowds are moving together to totally non Arabic speaking countries, do you think the dialects will mix? Or is it more likely some dialects will prevail due to Arabs from various countries being stuck together in the immigrant communities? Do immigrant Arabs in Arab countrieslearn the dialect of their new country?
Or is it possible that the solution to dialect mixing will be new rise of the MSA?


I don't have any answers, but I will use the opportunity to once again plug the work of Philip Tetlock, who has shown that people, even experts, are really bad at predicting such things, sometimes making predictions no better than random guesses. I know it sucks, because it would be nice to predict such things, but it's really hard.


I agree with ScottScheule, we can't predict what can happen. It's true that the linguistic situation is getting worse day after day, nonethelss, there are poeple out there who are conscious of the gravity of its impact on the future of the arabic nation. As I said before, it depends on the political will. Many questions were raised about the teaching policies in Tunisia in the past three years, and everybody is now alerted. New decisions were taken within a "national dialogue" in order to find solutions to the situation. In fact, the arabic language was not the only target of negilgence, the hole educational system is "virused". Some people think that a hole generation missed the train, so it's high time to save the coming ones.

I heard about such saving program to the arabic language in Morocco, in the UAE also where the red line was crossed: parents asking for stopping the teaching of Arabic in some private schools due to the difficulties their children find in the process !!. In Egypt as well, observing political leaders unable to compose a good sentence in MSA and making huge spelling mistakes was the last straw.
So globally, everyone is alerted and looking for solutions. As I know, there is no clear programs and every country is facing the situation alone, and that's really unfortunate I think.
To conclude, everything is possible, let's just hope for the best.

As for arabs exchanging the language for a better life in Europe, I'm afraid that didn't work as they intended, since -as I mentioned previously- some of their descendants are looking back to their origins, learning Arabic in summer schools and discovering their parent's primal culture.

Cavesa wrote:

As large crowds of Arabs are moving to other Arabic countries and more crowds are moving together to totally non Arabic speaking countries, do you think the dialects will mix?

I don't think dielects will ever mix. Maybe some words will be added to the vocabulary of the dielect, but nothing else. Why I think so? : simply because the number of speakers of each dielect is huge and increasing continuously. For exemple, the population in Tunisia -which is one of the smallest arab countries demographically- counts 11 million which is comparable with the population of the Czech Republic :).

Cavesa wrote:

Do immigrant Arabs in Arab countries learn the dialect of their new country?

Not only immigrants. I've already mentioned that the massive production of Egyptian movies/series have affected the rest of the arabic world. Well , many actors from arab countries go to Egypt and act in those shows. They master the Egyptian dielect and you can't tell they're not egyptians. Nevertheless, other dielects may take many years to master and that depends on the primal dielect. For exemple, tunisian and algerian are very close, morrocan as well, but iraqui dielect is distant from the previous three. So, you can imagine two people, one from Iraq and the other from Ageria living in Morroco, it's obvious that the algerian would master the morrocan dielect first. The iraqui may never master it.
Dielects between arab folk doesn't really present a major problem though, since almost everyone speaks MSA.
MSA is one of the signs of our union, but it's getting weak, with wars, religious conflicts and globalization. Again, everything is possible. The tunisian revolution was a leading event promising a change in the arab picture. It may be just a political revolution (not yet completed and waiting for the cultural one), but as you see, many other countries tried to follow the example (in spite of the results), that may be an omen that if the linguistic situation changes for the best in just one country, the end would be happy for all. Let's just hope so.




Edited by hp230 on 11 July 2015 at 3:15am

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Luso
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 Message 50 of 75
11 July 2015 at 3:33am | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
I wonder: what do you think is gonna be the linguistic outcome of the
today's crisis?

"Forecasting is just a way of replacing the unknown by error."

I won't pretend to have an answer, but I think it's interesting to think of Europe a
few centuries ago: you'd probably live your entire life within a small radius from
your house. This wouldn't be valid for members of nobility, wars, pilgrimages, and the
odd profession, but the rest would stay put.

Dialects and accents varied wildly: if the next village was on the other side of a
river or a mountain, chances would be they would speak a different version of your
dialect. If they belonged to another kingdom, we could be talking of a whole different
language. Even most army regiments had a regional basis: can you imagine Czech
soldiers mixed with Austrians and Hungarians in a trench? Difficult.

This was gradually eroded by schooling, newspapers, trains, and eventually radio and
TV. Italians chose a national language 150 years ago, but they only have been speaking
it as a rule for a couple of generations (blame it on TV).

I won't speculate about the similarities between the Arab world and these events, but
I'm sure there must be an evolution: material conditions will evolve; literacy levels
will improve; social awareness will increase.

And language use will evolve too.


hp230 wrote:
As for arabs exchanging the language for a better life in Europe, I'm
afraid that didn't work as they intended, since -as I mentioned previously- some of
their descendants are looking back to their origins, learning Arabic in summer schools
and discovering their parent's primal culture.

Interesting. A revival can come from the most unexpected places.

In Italy, until recently, dialects were the norm (cf. above). Then they became a sign
of backwardness. Now, they are hip. Same thing with Mirandese in Portugal. Go figure.

Edited by Luso on 11 July 2015 at 3:43am

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Serpent
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 Message 51 of 75
11 July 2015 at 4:35am | IP Logged 
hp230 wrote:
Nevertheless, other dielects may take many years to master and that depends on the primal dielect. For exemple, tunisian and algerian are very close, morrocan as well, but iraqui dielect is distant from the previous three. So, you can imagine two people, one from Iraq and the other from Ageria living in Morroco, it's obvious that the algerian would master the morrocan dielect first. The iraqui may never master it.

Do most Algerians in Morocco master it though? I'd imagine it's like with a Spaniard in Portugal or a Norwegian in Sweden. They can adapt and function, but most will never speak 100% Portuguese/Swedish respectively.
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1e4e6
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 Message 52 of 75
11 July 2015 at 6:01am | IP Logged 
One of my Lebanese friends told me a few years ago that in Lebanon, French and English
are both the important business languages, especially the former due to being ruled by
France until 1946(?) or so, and that Lebanese children usually either go to a lycée or an
Anglophone school until university, where they often either go abroad or stay in the
country and go to for example, the American University of Beirut or the Francophone
university that was founded by Jesuit Lyonnaise nuns in the 1800s. Meanwhile Arabic can
be spoken at home and between friends, but the curricula have French and/or English.

So perhaps Lebanon also are in the same way, with French and English? Most of the
Lebanese that I met I spoke either one of those with them and they are quite proficient.
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Woodsei
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 Message 53 of 75
11 July 2015 at 1:04pm | IP Logged 
I thought I'd join in on the discussion and offer my views.

I lived and have biological roots both in the US and Egypt (parents), so I'm hoping my
thoughts would be useful to some of you in the thread.

In terms of language, Arabic isn't declining or going anywhere! I'm not sure what the
situation is in Tunisia, but in Egypt, Arabic is still going strong. Yes, there is
emphasis and focus on English mostly, and then French and German, as both a status
symbol, and to be able to study and work in foreign countries and/or corporations. In
a sense, in Egypt, the homogeneity of the people, the culture, and the language is
very, very similar to Japan. Since I have started learning Japanese, it struck me how
similar certain views are: respect to the elderly, honorifics, the importance and
integration of family, how they respond to people from the West, language barriers
(and English which is heavily accented if learned without access to native speakers),
teens' ideas of what is cool and what is not, the sense of humor and the puns, and
ideas about life. Egyptians are generally really amicable and friendly, and wouldn't
treat a foreigner with contempt. However, there are certainly a lot of differences,
and in the more rural, or isolated (ghettoish) areas, hygiene is main obstacle. It
even extended to public hospitals, and currently there is an uproar in quality of
medical care, hygiene in streets and hospitals, and since the Arab Spring, security
issues and curfews. Private hospitals are taken care of pretty well. People I talk to
tell me that life generally goes on, and that the
problems touted in the media are given so much focus that makes people tend to think
that this is all there is to the country. Not true. Schools and colleges are in full
swing, work is as usual, people still go out and party, etc.

I'm not going to pretend that all is sunshine and roses over there, though. The
economy is terrible, the aforementioned hygiene issue, and so on and so forth. The
similarity to a culture like Japan ends at the personal level, unfortunately. But I
have hope. The younger generations are now made more aware of the outside world, the
disparities in the country and the unfair rule, and they are actively trying to do
something about it. But change is not easy, and will probably take time to be in full
effect. Not like the West. People here are very much aware of their rights, sensitized
to politics earlier, are generally well-informed, there is freedom of speech, etc.
That was not the case in Egypt until a few years back. People are trying to change
now. How this will play out, I am not sure. Egyptians, politically and economically,
have a lot of catching up to do. It's sad, but true.

Culturally and linguistically, however, there is a lot in Egypt. Yes, current
novelists that make memorable writings are not as common as ones that were there 50
years ago, but contemporary works are being produced. There was a true story of a 30
something female lawyer who wanted to be in a relationship and get married, and her
memoir, which was later adapted into a drama series, garnered a lot of positive
attention, as in her story, she reflects the old traditions of arranged marriages,
society's views on a "late" marriage, and where she is in all of this, as a modern,
independent woman with different and more contemporary views. And women nowadays are
increasingly like that. Maybe in the rural areas things are still pretty much as has
been portrayed, not accurately I'm sad to say, but the tide is changing, and in a big
way. The ideals of the West are being embraced so fast, especially in metropolitan
areas, and things like education, women's rights, freedom of speech, and relationships
that are not dictated by religious and cultural norms are changing. I'm not citing
opinions, just stating the facts. The media industry is so active, they are churning
out 80+ TV dramas in a few months period, movies as well, and talk shows like it's
nobody's business. In the past few years a show similar to The Daily Show with Jon
Stewart, hosted by a former surgeon who received his training in the States, took off
to widely, and wildly, positive recognition and acclaim. Not sure if I'm a fan,
though, but you get the idea. Young 20 and 30 somethings are taking to Youtube and
making incredibly well-made videos about their opinions on everything, from politics
to running jokes. I'm amazed at how much Egypt has changed in the past few years.
Unfortunately the bad also exists, but people are certainly verbal about it, where in
the past, nothing was said.

The "old" movies (black and white), even the 70 s movies, and novels for people like
Naguib Mahfouz, still portray a huge aspect of the Egyptian culture, most of which is
relevant today. It's not outdated by any means. The current scene in Egypt is like
this: What the older books and media show, and the changes taking place in my
generation currently, which is represented through media and forums. Yes, online
forums where people take to writing Arabic in the Egyptian or Syrian dialect, not MSA.
There is also romanization as you would find for learners of Japanese, people posting
and tweeting shorthand, speaking Arabic through English text by romanizing
pronunciation, and so on and so forth. The changes portrayed in the media are also
interesting. Wherein the oldies focused on both the first and lower classes, with
their wide differences, ethics, and beliefs, all classes now are being shown. Trends
in changes of speech, dialects, mannerisms are currently the norm. In the old days,
swear words were rarely used, as they were signs of bad form, bad work, and grating on
the
ears. Socially unacceptable. Today, oh boy. Sometimes I have a hard time finishing an
episode for something, because of that. But again, not all is like that. What I'm
trying to say is, speech is now very much reflective of how people talk. Relationships
are very much like Western relationships, which, for Arab countries not too long ago,
was stigmatized. Again, not so much today.

For the Turkish learners, you probably know that the Turkish drama industry took the
world by storm a few years back. So on Egyptian tv channels, tons of dubbed Turkish
shows are being aired. The culture and ideals of these shows is also being embraced
and is influencing more and more people in Egypt today. At least in the
Cairo/Alexandria area. I'm not being dramatic. Literally, tons. They are actually
dubbed by Syrians, and Jordanians, so you have a large pool of shows to choose from if
you want to learn the Levantine dialect. Syrian, Lebanese, and Jordanian shows are
still there (I tend to favor the Syrian ones because they're better produced), but
since the very sad and unfortunate events of Syria, I'm not sure if they are able to
maintain the momentum of media production. I have also read books for Syrian, writers.
So you do have choices.

The problem with the accessibility of these resources is due to non-existent
marketing, and the tendency, of Egyptians at least, to shy away from promoting their
works. Partly because of the way some are, and partly because, unfortunately, with the
current political unrest, some people feel that their culture is stigmatized, and
don't want to associate with it, or feel that it would be unsafe and considered that
they have political agendas, which they don't. It's sad. While the culture is thriving
in-house, it's not doing so much outside the borders, and you probably would have
better luck if you make a trip there. But recently, lots of website have been
springing up in the United States that sell all sorts of books, from educational
children's books, to authentic novels, to foreign language teaching material. They're
a bit on the expensive side, but they're finally here. Dar El Manhal, a book
publisher from Syria, I believe, and Egyptian publishing houses are finally starting
to move their products abroad. Noor Art is an example (for kids, mostly) and some
others I will try to fish around for in my never-ending pile of bookmarks, and I'll
try to post it here. Also, if you make a language partner from Egypt, the general
consensus is that they will be willing to get you books and resources, and make
recommendations for media and other things. People are generally very much into
showing people around Egypt. Kanewai, I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience
visiting Egypt. Having a tour guide and being with a reputable tourism company would
have probably helped avoid some of the very negative experiences you had there.
Hustlers, especially, are poorly educated people from very very backwards environments
and upbringing, and then they hear a word or two about a foreign stereotype, and jump
on the wagon. It's very disrespectful, they try to extort you in anyway possible, and
they do it to Egyptian locals too. It's a reality, unfortunately, but not all areas
are like that. I hope you are lucky enough to meet some normal and regular people.
They are generally very friendly and very hospitable. Same for you too, Cavesa. While
a lot of tourists go for the monuments and the beaches,, a lot are actually living for
extended periods in the region, and genuinely trying to get to know the culture and
the people. But, most of them don't come with tourist companies. They just usually
have made a few friends online or in their own countries previously, and came with
them, have been hosted, or at least helped around by them. A friend of mine who
currently lives in Cairo had such a friend. He lived there for over a year. There are
both the positives and the negatives. And people from the west are generally turned
off by the crazy driving (no street laws, can you imagine! Well at least the traffic
lights are still respected) and the hygiene in some areas, not all. Others have better
experiences, been to better places, and seem to enjoy speeding without a speed limit
imposed, lol. Even the drag races at night. :D

The problem with Arabic dwindling down is mostly pronounced in Arab speakers living
abroad. I have not lived in Egypt as much, most of my life here, but my parents made
sure that I spoke both mother languages equally, especially Arabic, at home from day
one. Simply because they knew that outside
of the home, English will be my main focus, and really, the only opportunity I had was
at home. This is not only with Arabic, but with other languages as well. I think for
Arabic, especially, the social stigma associated with the Middle East. Religious
representation on TV unfortunately does great disservice to those who practice it, and
you'd realize that if you spoke with a normal average Joe or Jane going about their
day. It's looked at by some of the younger people as "uncool" simply because a lot are
judged negatively because they come from the area or speak the language. I don't want
to get into politics, but you probably know what I mean. It's harder as well for the
parents, who have to work most of the day, to come home and speak to their kids in
Arabic, and usually default to English. Not everyone is like that, though, but that's
probably why everyone knows immersion works. You JUST have got to speak the local
language, no two ways about it. The native one falls into disuse. You get people who
understand, but don't speak. Then their kids, as a result, don't speak OR understand.
And then that's it. In Egypt, however, being able to speak a foreign language is a
status symbol, puts you up there with the cool kids, and you're looked at as
sophisticated and of a higher social level. So many people start inserting English
language words, phrases, or simply start speaking full-fledged English with someone
else who can speak full-fledged English. :D And people stare, lol. But, these same
people, while being multilingual, can still speak superb, flawless Arabic among there
peers as well, so the language, in Egypt at least, isn't dying out. I do know some
Algerian people who told me that French is a national language, like Arabic, and that
people speak both, with more French than Arabic. They even have French names. So it
differs from region to region, probably more in Tunisia, Algeria, and maybe Morocco.
Not so much in Egypt, the Gulf countries, and Syria, as well as Jordan. Lebanon is
famous for the focus on French. And they speak better French , excellent French, than
most Egyptians speak English. Not to sound like a broken record, but look at it like
how English is in Japan. Unless you're in an English-speaking school with native
speaker, in Egypt, English teaching in the public school starts in middle school, and
it's terrible. They can't say one word. Focus is on grammar and grammar terms with
zero exposure. But that was sometime back. While the education is still pretty much
the same, the current mass exposure to Western films, dramas, and the tons of cable
channels that have been launched more than 10 years ago in the Arab world that
specifically air only English TV series and movies, shows, news, sports, etc., is
changing that. In addition to the genuine interest in Western culture. There are
equivalents for other languages too. TV 5, and other foreign channels are being aired.
24/7. In the old days on national Egyptian channels, there were shows that aired in
the evening where you could watch a foreign film, and these films were also pretty
old. This is now dead. People stopped watching local TV for the most part, or at least
watch it very little, and are now watching Egyptian cable channels, channels airing
American/English/Australian/Canadian content all day, or foreign channels if they have
access to them. And of course, the internet. The latest technology hits the stores
immediately, where previously there was a delay. Again, I'm only speaking from my
experiences.

As whether to learn MSA or dialects, here are my two cents. For reading newspapers and
watching neWs, or historical dramas, you need MSA. For everything else, learn a
dialect. i would say Egyptian because this has the most media, and since the country
is still relatively safe, you can visit it, and know people from there. Learning a
different dialect is not hard. It's like Kansai-ben and Tokyo-ben. It's still
Japanese, but you need to listen to it, get used to it, and figure out the subtle
differences. You're not learning a different language at all. Well, in the case of
Moroccan and Algerian, I guess I could say the dialects vary greatly. I understand
Arabic and have a hard time making out what they say, and then they default to
Egyptian or Levantine (mostly Egyptian) for people to understand them. But not so with
the gulf dialect, or the Levantine. These are extremely comprehensible. I think
there's an FSI book that worked out the similarities and differences between levantine
and egyptian? And of course, the inner dialects of Egypt have the same issue, but
standard Egyptian is so widespread that EVERYONE understands and speaks it. Other Arab
countries naturally learn the dialect through exposure to the media, but Egyptians
usually have a hard time speaking anything other than Egyptian, simply because of the
above. Only if he/she has lived in Lebanon, for instance, or if he/she has a Lebanese
parent can an Egyptian speak in the Lebanese dialect. They do, however, understand the
dialects.

I guess learn the dialect first, as you will have access to people and media, then
learn MSA. Heck, there are even forums where they write in the dialects, not MSA. MSA
isn't as hard as people make it out to be. If you read a lot of books, you'll get the
hang of it. I understand books are scarce, but online news and blogs are out there to
help with that until you can have access to books. In terms of the language learning
books imposing Islamic ideals, I don't know, haven't seen those. What I see some books
doing are showing cultural ideals, not religious. And even if there are religious
aspects there, they're there because they have become part of the culture, and not to
impose a religious agenda. Believe me, the book publishers in Egypt rarely, if ever,
think about that and just want to go home. I'm sure there are religious books out
there, but these are usually used for divinity studies in graduate educational
institutions, and not for foreign language learners. But I
have seen a series of books made for foreigners, and written entirely in the Arabic
language, using colorful pictures to guide you as clues. They are wonderful, and I
wish there were books like that for other languages. There are also readers. They are
mostly produced by Dar Al-Manhal, but readers are available from both Syrian or
Jordanian and Egyptian publishing houses. I can try to hunt down some links and
resources from an Arabic teacher I know who brings these things here to the States for
teaching purposes, if anyone's interested.

I'm very sorry that this is such a long post, but I hope through it that you have all
gained some perspective in how things are, at least in Egypt.

Anyway, hope that helped!

EDIT: Due to some horrific spelling mistakes.

Edited by Woodsei on 11 July 2015 at 3:08pm

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hp230
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 Message 54 of 75
11 July 2015 at 6:56pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:

Do most Algerians in Morocco master it though? I'd imagine it's like with a Spaniard in Portugal or a Norwegian in Sweden. They can adapt and function, but most will never speak 100% Portuguese/Swedish respectively.

I don't know about how close is Portuguese to Spanish, or Norwegian to Swedish, but I don't think it's the same situation here, morrocan and algerian dielects are really close, with years I don't think an algerian would have problems with the details ( I don't say it would be easy, it can take some time).

I think what Woodsei wrote supports globally what I've said previously but there are some points to clear up.
Woodsei wrote:

In terms of language, Arabic isn't declining or going anywhere! I'm not sure what the
situation is in Tunisia, but in Egypt, Arabic is still going strong

Yes, the situation may be different in Egypt, but what I'm sure of, is that MSA is declining in almost all arabic coutries, including Egypt. In Mai 2015, the fourth Arabic language conference was held in Dubai to discuss the linguistic situation in Arab countries and find solutions to the decline of MSA's importance especially in terms of teaching methodologies and technical specialities.
Sorry if I say this, but in terms of rhetoric and language beauty, MSA is incomparable with any dielect. The literature inheritance that we dispose of can only prove that. I'm not underestimating the beauty of dielects, but they are only for day to day talks. So in the end, someone who is learning Arabic should set first his goals. Does he just want to talk with arabic people? learning the dielect may do it for him, and as Woodsei said, egyptian would be the easiest because of mass media and so on. However, IMHO tasting the real beauty of the Arabic language and studying the culture isn't possible without learning MSA.






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Serpent
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 Message 55 of 75
11 July 2015 at 7:05pm | IP Logged 
Wow thanks for the great post!
Do sports commentators speak MSA or dialects btw?
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hp230
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 Message 56 of 75
11 July 2015 at 8:28pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Wow thanks for the great post!
Do sports commentators speak MSA or dialects btw?

In local events dielects more likely. Otherwise, sport events are usually reported in MSA. However, you know in a football match for exemple, enthusiasm generally makes commentators pronounce dielect-words.


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