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Is translation evil?

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Iversen
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 Message 9 of 22
09 July 2015 at 10:42am | IP Logged 
Well, I suppose it is a mixture of French and a bit of Latin background that makes me use the word instead of just 'hole' - plus the knowledge that it is quite common as a technical term in brain physiology. However now that Peter Mollenburg has pointed out that it isn't a common word in English at all (outside that special context) I'm already considering a switch to the word "lacunae".

Edited by Iversen on 09 July 2015 at 10:45am

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PeterMollenburg
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 Message 10 of 22
09 July 2015 at 10:48am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Well, I suppose it is a mixture of French and a bit of Latin background that makes me use
the word instead of just 'hole' - plus the knowledge that it is quite common as a technical term in brain
physiology. However now that Peter Mollenburg has pointed out that it isn't a common word in English at all
(outside that special context) I'm already considering a switch to the word "lacunae".


Now that I can instantly comprehend ;)

What's the deal with PeterMollenburg anyway, pfft, bloody idiot.
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tastyonions
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 Message 11 of 22
09 July 2015 at 11:01am | IP Logged 
"Lacuna" is the more typical English singular word and I'm sure that most who knew it would probably guess the correct meaning of "lacune," but then "lacuna" is hardly a commonly-used word, either. But it's still a perfectly good one and I use it myself. I can even remember the exact place I learned it, which was a classical Greek course at university (those classics professors were some smart dudes). Also related to English "lagoon," Spanish and Italian "lago" and "laguna," and so on.

One small correction:
Iversen wrote:
PS: Have you ever thought about the different words for breakfast? In English it is the time where you get something to eat after getting nothing for hours on end. In French it is just a minor thing that reminds you of a more important meal ('petit dejeuner' versus 'dejeuner' - where de-jeuner in itself means breaking your fast). Croatian has something similar: doručak is '(leading up) to ručak, and ručak is lunch. In Spanish it ultimately derives from getting something to bite into (almuerzo < Latin admorsus).

The Spanish word for breakfast is "desayuno," with an "ayuno" being a fast. So the "desayuno" is a "de-fast," much like the English word. "Almuerzo" is lunch.

It's interesting that everywhere outside of France, "déjeuner" still means "breakfast" as it originally did.

---

On the topic of translation: While I think L2->L1 translation is pretty useless as a learning activity, I agree that translations in L1 are great for making higher level L2 texts more accessible than they would otherwise be.

I also use L1->L2 translations pretty extensively in refining my active use of the language. For me, the way to handle the potential problem of importing L1 structures into L2 active use is to tackle it head-on, rather than trying to skirt around it by scrupulously avoiding "polluting" the L2 with L1 association. That is, I use translation to make explicit what the differences are and what the genuinely idiomatic, as opposed to either awkward and literal or circumlocutionary, equivalent of some L2 phrase is.

Edited by tastyonions on 09 July 2015 at 11:16am

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Ogrim
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 Message 12 of 22
09 July 2015 at 12:24pm | IP Logged 
Interesting discussion. As regards translation exercises from L1 to L2, I don't find them useless or boring, but they are useful only so far as you have someone to correct them for you, and that someone should have a very advanced level in both languages.

Regarding translations from L2 to L1, I do that frequently, as I find that it is a good way to learn new vocabulary and get a more solid grasp of grammar patterns in L2. Especially when studying highly synthetic languages, I find that translating some paragraphs helps be better analysing the grammar and the different use of verb tenses, modes, noun cases etc.

Like Iversen, I am no big fan of monolingual dictionaries, but I do use the monolingual pop-up dictionaries in my Kindle, and for my advanced languages it works.

tastyonions wrote:
It's interesting that everywhere outside of France, "déjeuner" still means "breakfast" as it originally did.


In the 19th century in France, "déjeuner" still meant "breakfast", taken first thing in the morning, "diner" was the meal taken at noon and "souper" was the evening meal. Reading literature from that time one discovers that the "déjeuner" was often a rather copious meal, which could include warm dishes of meat or fish. Probably due to changes in society (industrialisation, change in working hours etc.) it became common to start the day with something quick, like a coffee and a croissant, thus a "small breakfast". And this meant that the proper "déjeuner" would be taken later, thus replacing the "diner" which again replaced the "souper" in the evening.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that both "dinner" and "supper" exists in English, and I have had many a discussion with English friends about whether there is a difference in meaning. Some say that a dinner is more formal than a supper: in London if you invite people to a dinner party it is a rather formal thing, but you can ask a friend around for supper, which would be an informal thing at the kitchen table. And then there are English people who never have dinner nor supper, they have tea, and they don't mean sipping to the hot brew, but having a hot meal.

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Serpent
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 Message 13 of 22
09 July 2015 at 2:04pm | IP Logged 
tastyonions wrote:
The Spanish word for breakfast is "desayuno," with an "ayuno" being a fast. So the "desayuno" is a "de-fast," much like the English word. "Almuerzo" is lunch.

In Portuguese desjejum exists but pequeno-almoço or café de manhã are more common. According to wiki in the Portuguese of Galicia almoço still means breakfast though. In African Portuguese it's mata-bicho, which appears to mean "kill the bug". We have such an expression in Russian as well :D But the main word is derived from "tomorrow", resulting in an idiom "to feed (someone) breakfasts" (кормить завтраками) - to keep putting something off until tomorrow.
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Iversen
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 Message 14 of 22
09 July 2015 at 2:54pm | IP Logged 
PeterMollenburg wrote:
What's the deal with PeterMollenburg anyway, pfft, bloody idiot.


Actually I take it seriously when somebody points out that my vocabulary has become too idiosyncratic. So what's the deal with PeterMollenburg? Well, from my side it is saying thanks to him for a welcome correction.

tastyonions wrote:
The Spanish word for breakfast is "desayuno," with an "ayuno" being a fast. So the "desayuno" is a "de-fast," much like the English word. "Almuerzo" is lunch.


One serious blunder which I should have avoided (and not just an attempt to diversify my language as with 'the other word for hole'). But with "desayuno" Spanish enters the league of those who see the morning meal as a welcome end to and endless night of grievous starvation.

Maybe I should point out again that the purpose of L2->L1 translation for a learner should be to internalize structures from the target language - and then there are people who will make translations into impeccable L1 partly to amuse less languageminded fellow humans, partly as a feat comparable to writing a book yourself. And in practice you will fairly quickly reach a level where you stop doing them unless you develop a special interest in producing linguistic masterworks in your L1.

For L1 to L2 translations the main reason is that they show you mercilessly how little you know, and it will take much longer to reach the stage where you can even think about making translations for the artistic value of it or for then benefit of mankind.

For this reason you can choose fairly difficult L2 materials for your L2->L1 translations, but the other way round the bar should be set at a much lower level - otherwise you will spend too much time on vainly searching translations for problem words or expressions, or you will be googling for confirmation that certain daring constructions are possible. Unfortunately most textbooks don't make their L1->L2 translation texts easier than their L2->L1 samples.

To achieve this difference in level I sometimes do retranslations where I take a bilingual printout and read through the original text one or two sentences at a time while checking the translation. And then I cover the original and try to reconstruct the original. This is not a real translation because I already have seen the original, but it almost feels like I'm using the target language actively, and if I have forgotten something I know where to find it fast - I don't have to look thing up. I could have produced the L2->L1 translation myself, which in theory would have taught me more, but I have tried to do those translations in both directions and found that it was much faster and more fun to go directly to the retranslation phase.

Edited by Iversen on 09 July 2015 at 3:36pm

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mrwarper
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 Message 15 of 22
09 July 2015 at 5:07pm | IP Logged 
A side note about Spanish: we also have the expression "to kill the bug" (one that would make you crave for food), in the form "matar el gusanillo", but it applies to having a small snack (or anything, really) to stop feeling a bit peckish -- in the British sense of "hungry".
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Dragon27
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 Message 16 of 22
10 July 2015 at 4:40pm | IP Logged 
Not only in Spanish, but also in Portuguese (matar o bicho) and French (tuer le ver).
A little article in Spanish about this (it's Spanish, right? I don't know Spanish. Google-translate thinks it's Spanish...)
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/hemeroteca/2002/11/07/1311810.s html (can't remove the space in SHTML for some reason)
Maybe it descended from a common expression in Latin?

The popular etymology is that this expression came from an ancient practice to treat internal parasites (like intestinal roundworms) with alcohol. And overtime it came to mean "to quickly satisfy one's hunger".

I don't know how this expression found it's way into Russian. "Заморить червячка" has the same meaning "to have a small snack". The broadest meaning of "заморить", I think, is "to kill, to put to death", although in modern Russian it usually means "to starve someone to death", or, sometimes, "to exhaust" (by overworking, for example). "Червяк" means "a worm".

Edited by Dragon27 on 10 July 2015 at 4:50pm



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