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Persian or Farsi

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Chung
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 Message 89 of 99
13 October 2006 at 3:17pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
Chung wrote:
Yet seeing that someone (presumably of Iranian origin), go on to imply that the real face of modern Iran is only in the pre-Islamic times points to selective memory and unwillingness to consider the influence of Islam from the 7th century AD onward.


You seem to imply that "Persia" ended with the arrival of Islam, but I am not sure this is true.


Not at all.

The original quote that you posted leads one to believe that replacing "Persian" in English with "Farsi" is another Western conspiracy to completely sever the links of modern Iranians with their ancient past.

I also interpreted the quote as implying that Islam is not part of this "real face of the Iranian people", (see the quote's author mentioning "Persian Empire", "Persian cats", "Persian carpets", etc.) We know that this is not the case and it sounds similar to arguments made by nationalists of other nations who gloss over or ignore certain bits of history, while trumpeting others. It sounds as if he/she wanted to emphasize the martial and cultural dominance of the old empires, thus reminding people that at one time, the Persian empires were once feared and respected...

In any case, a person's biological and cultural heritage are not clear-cut and those of any ethnic group that is constantly intermarrying, emigrating, incorporating other peoples etc. are even less so. As such, I don't really see the problem in considering the whole picture, and putting Islam alongside the pre-Islamic past in the heritage of modern Iranians. Calling modern Islamic citizens of Iran as the cultural kin of the citizens of the old Achamenid and Parthian empires is a little off for me given the changes that have happened in the last 2000 years. By no means is this unique to Persia and Iran. It's hard to justify calling the citizens of modern Tunisia to be direct cultural kin of the citizens of the Carthaginian Empire (and hence inheritors of the vast amount of territory that was under Carthage's control)

I think that I've said enough on this thread so I'll stop here. It's amazing how much a debate can stir the mind (and sometimes the blood ;-)) even though in this case I am not studying the language or culture.

Edited by Chung on 13 October 2006 at 3:46pm

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Alijsh
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jahanshiri.ir/
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 Message 90 of 99
14 October 2006 at 1:23am | IP Logged 
As I wrote in an earlier post, I just quoted the views of some other Iranians who live abroad. I wish I hadn't done it to see their view being somewhat generalized to all Iranians. Just the starting post is my opinion on "Persian or Farsi". Persoanally, I'm sure it has nothing to do with politics or else. No Western-Eastern country or people has brought Farsi to English or other languages, alone. But mostly, Iraninas that natively call their language Farsi not Persian/Persan/Persa/Persich/etc.

So no conspiracy and such and such. Here I admit it was wrong to quote such opinions that belong only to some people that like to attach everything to politics. However, such people are found in any country.

Here I like to quote what Ardaschir has wrote at [Specific Languages : Persian (Farsi) overview] that's also the only opinion of many people on this issue:

Ardaschir wrote:
To close, my thoughts about the name of this language: it has always been known as Persian, and in scholarly circles it still is, but for some reason in the past few decades it has become increasingly common to call it Farsi, which is indeed the Persian word for ?Persian.? However, I think we would all agree that it would sound both stupid and pretentious, when speaking English, to say ?I know Deutsch so well that I can read Nederlands too and even understand some Svenska and Dansk, and I'm also pretty good at Français and Español and now I'm starting to learn Русский.? Why should a different standard apply for Persian? It shouldn't and it doesn't and it really sounds just as odd to call Persian Farsi, though you are certainly not to blame if you do it because that is what you have always heard others doing. I don't know what force is driving this change, and the only justification for it that I can imagine would be sensitivity to the feelings of native speakers if they for some reason objected to the use of Persian, but I don't believe that they do. Visit online bookshops and other sites both in Iran and abroad and you will see that they regard themselves as purveyors of Persian literature. To quote from the online Wikipedia: ?Persian, the more widely used and official name of the language in English, is the Hellenized form of the native term Parsi. Farsi is the Arabicized form of Parsi and its use in the English language is very recent. Native Persian speakers typically call it "Parsi" in modern usage? The Academy of Persian Language and Literature as well as most linguists and lexicographers, believe that "Farsi" is not the appropriate term used for the Persian language in English. "Farsi" is actually the Arabicized form of "Parsi", due to a lack of the /p/ phoneme in Standard Arabic?? So, if anyone has any legitimate reason for using the new term, please provide it for discussion. If not, let's drop the Farsi business once and for all, get rid of references to it on our site (administrator, please begin by changing the name of this topic), and try to encourage others to use the correct term: Persian.


Likewise, If we say Persian is correct it's not because we are against Arabs, Islam, interested in pre-Islamic history etc. Iran is live history. We have still many places in Iran where people speak very closely to the era of Parthian and Sasanian Empires. We even have regions whose lifestyle, clothing etc. is like those times. So Iran's pre-Islamic civilization has not died to need using such methods to revive it. You think by accepting Islam we became Arab so that we need now to become Iranian again? If you think so, no, you're wrong. We melted Islam in our rich culture. We have distinct personality.

"Persian Empire", "Persian cats", "Persian carpets" follows "Persian language". Its original author wanted to say that it's just like saying, "Farsi Empire, Farsi cats, Farsi carpets".

If despite of reading Ardaschir's post, you don't still understand why Persian is correct then I can't do otherwise as well. Call it whichever you like. I don't see any reason to particpate in further discuss.

Chung wrote:
in this case I am not studying the language or culture

How romantic! You think we now sit and cry or kill ourselves. Of course, not.

Edited by Alijsh on 14 October 2006 at 10:27am

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frenkeld
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 Message 91 of 99
14 October 2006 at 10:30am | IP Logged 
Alijsh wrote:
If despite of reading Ardaschir's post, you don't still understand why Persian is correct then I can't do otherwise as well.


Alijsh,

Ardaschir´s arguments are identical to the "linguistic" portion of the ones you had already sited.

Both you and Ardaschir being heavily into languages makes you forget that most people do not do a linguistic study to choose the word to use, so their idea of what´s "correct" is different - for them "correct" is what they hear used around them.

In the sense of "correctness" based on usage, "Español" is not an English word and "Farsi" is. This may not be logical, but languages are never fully logical - there are exceptions to most rules, and that´s part of what makes languages fun anyway.



Edited by frenkeld on 14 October 2006 at 2:06pm

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AML
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 Message 92 of 99
14 October 2006 at 3:38pm | IP Logged 
Alijsh wrote:
Dear lengua,

We are not discussing on Persian and Farsi. It has been closed on page 6.
If you had read posts then you didn't write such things. You can use
whichever you like.

By the way, if you don't like this thread don't follow it. Nobody has made
you.

Don't write whatever comes to your mind.

Now that you are a fan of communication, it's not good to call people
disagreeing you as fanatic, following gov't agitprop, lacking open mind
etc. It's anti-communication.


Looks like we have the Iranian version of Sinfonia. Let's see how long this
lasts.

Carry on! =)
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patuco
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 Message 93 of 99
14 October 2006 at 3:49pm | IP Logged 
AML wrote:
Looks like we have the Iranian version of Sinfonia.

Maybe he just emigrated... ;-)
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administrator
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 Message 94 of 99
15 October 2006 at 12:32am | IP Logged 
Gentlemen, please refrain from personal attacks on this forum or your accounts will be deleted. Thank you.
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Sir Nigel
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 Message 95 of 99
15 October 2006 at 1:10am | IP Logged 
I'm so glad to find this thread (well mostly the first few posts) as I only heard the word Farsi a couple of months ago. No I'm not living in a box, but considering I don't know much about the Persian language it was quite news for me to hear of this "Farsi".

Not even my spell-checker recognised the word Farsi!

Edited by Sir Nigel on 15 October 2006 at 1:17am

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Pizquita
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 Message 96 of 99
28 October 2006 at 4:58pm | IP Logged 
I can't believe what some of Spanish people started to say Farsi because of the recent Iranian immigrants in my country who don't know Spanish yet. So Farsi is English, and is Spanish as well? No.

Firstly, we have to look the word Farsi in Persian dictionary then find what does mean in other languages which are never display this word Farsi but Persa, Persian, Persiano, etc.


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