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Fate of HTLAL

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
178 messages over 23 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 22 23 Next >>
Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6357 days ago

9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 169 of 178
12 August 2015 at 10:18pm | IP Logged 
Juаn wrote:
What I fail to understand is, for those who do not wish to discuss certain topics, how does it affect them if others do?

I have no interest in Esperanto, technology, or science fiction, fantasy and zombie stories. Would it make any sense for me to demand that discussions related to them be banned?

Maybe because political discussions concern actual forum members? If people were discussing "is Juan a zombie because who the hell reads anymore?" you wouldn't like that either.

(Of course I understand that it's a privilege to expect representation in any international politics discussion)

Sigh, emk once posted a great link explaining why telling people not to look at what bothers them is a bad idea, but I can't find it anymore :(

edit: and he made another great point, the mods can't choose to ignore this kind of discussions.

Edited by Serpent on 12 August 2015 at 10:48pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5105 days ago

727 posts - 1830 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*

 
 Message 170 of 178
12 August 2015 at 11:22pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Maybe because political discussions concern actual forum members? If people were discussing "is Juan a zombie because who the hell reads anymore?" you wouldn't like that either.

(Of course I understand that it's a privilege to expect representation in any international politics discussion)

Sigh, emk once posted a great link explaining why telling people not to look at what bothers them is a bad idea, but I can't find it anymore :(


By that reasoning we shouldn't be talking about languages either, because someone might be of the view that our native language or one we have chosen to study is too easy/difficult/mainstream/rare/useless/uninteresting.

As pointed out earlier by Josquin, the types of conversations that initially drew me to the forum either do not take place anymore or are no longer relevant to me. In my case, I used to love topics related to language-learning materials, as well as those that discussed the cultural, literary and intellectual production of the different language traditions, in addition to their relationship to each other, both literary, historic and linguistic.

Assimil and Colloquial were once new and exciting to me. Now I have read several of them, own dozens upon dozens more, and know by heart the different generations of Assimil. Discussion regarding stand-alone manuals of substance has become nearly nonexistent, with attention being devoted instead to the latest "hot" apps, technology and flashcards. Just compare participation in the thread discussing the demise of Dunwoody Press -a genuine catastrophe- with those devoted to the ipad or kindle.

Regarding literature and culture too, you have either Harry Potter in Finish or zombie stories in Spanish -if reading is broached at all-, or if a conversation becomes too stimulating and involved, it is locked for transgressing a strict topical boundary or degree of disagreement.

What this forum desperately need is to become more involving and engaging, not even more repetitive, bland and polite. If I become interested in and am following a discussion on something else, it is more likely I will be around and answer a topic that otherwise I would not have even seen.

Those who easily become offended - they need simply not look into the offtopic subforum or any potentially jarring threads. What can be easier than that?

Edited by Juаn on 12 August 2015 at 11:37pm

7 persons have voted this message useful



kanewai
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
justpaste.it/kanewai
Joined 4649 days ago

1386 posts - 3054 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese
Studies: Italian, Spanish

 
 Message 171 of 178
12 August 2015 at 11:29pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
In any case, a lot of interesting members who used to contribute very
insightful posts have either left the forum (ProfArguelles, Arekkusu, lingoleng) or
have been banned (Cainntear). This has changed the climate of the forum notably. To
me, the old discussions they used to contribute to were more interesting than the ones
we're having right now.


I miss the types of intellectual discussions I see in the archives too. I've seen
some start in the past year, but they seem to fade out quickly.

I think having an absentee owner explains part of the shift. He set the tone for the
original HTLAL, and he was active in the more academic / intellectual threads.

The banning of Caintear was traumatic for a lot of people, and I also sensed a change
afterwards. I hope that in any new HTLAL (or user-owned HTLAL) we could allow for
time-outs or temporary suspensions. The mods had to put a stop to the Caintear/Benny
fight, and it's a shame there weren't intermediary options between 'warning' and
'banning.'

Juan wrote:
If a conversation becomes too stimulating and involved, it is locked for
transgressing a strict topical boundary or degree of disagreement


Does this actually happen? It seems like a straw man argument. There was a recent
thread on Arabic that touched on colonialism, history, conflict, the Arab Spring,
immigration to Europe, economics, religion ... and wasn't locked down at all.


http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=40662&PN=0&TPN=7

Can you give a single example of a topic that was actually shut down for
"transgressing a strict topical boundary?"




Edited by kanewai on 12 August 2015 at 11:40pm

4 persons have voted this message useful



Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5105 days ago

727 posts - 1830 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*

 
 Message 172 of 178
12 August 2015 at 11:34pm | IP Logged 
kanewai wrote:
The mods had to put a stop to the Caintear/Benny
fight...


No, they actually needn't. Disagreement is not bad; it is good. That they did is what drove the forum to its present state.
4 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6357 days ago

9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 173 of 178
13 August 2015 at 12:17am | IP Logged 
I wouldn't actually say I'm more sensitive than other people here. I've simply learned to see patterns that I used to dismiss, and that have appalling implications if you really think of them. My reaction is not necessarily disproportional either - casual racism, sexism etc is still that. I simply happen to think there's no minimal standard of damage that should be met before these things are recognized. And I know that most people didn't mean it in a bad way. I also have a sense of humour, I just don't find some things funny for the same reasons that many people enjoy them. And I still have enough ingrained sexism etc to enjoy some jokes privately even when I recognize the discriminatory component. I also tend to think that what we see as a "thicker skin" is either internalized oppression, or a lack of exposure to discrimination (ie privilege). It's easier to laugh it off when you know that this won't lead to stereotypes about your group, for example straight white males.


I don't think the comparison applies because we generally agree that all languages are good and worth learning, and when we discuss them we refer to our experience, predict other people's experience, see where their preferences are etc. Again, patterns within patterns. It's recognized as subjective, and when there are any objective flaws in the reasoning we can point them out. Political discussions tend to be just as subjective but claim to be more objective. They inherently involve pointing out the superiority of one system over another. And everyone wants their opinion to be taken seriously, whereas in linguistic discussions native speakers have the authority.

But anyway, the mods have made it pretty clear that the no cross, no crown rule isn't going away.

Edited by Serpent on 13 August 2015 at 12:37am

3 persons have voted this message useful



AlexTG
Diglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 4398 days ago

178 posts - 354 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Latin, German, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 174 of 178
13 August 2015 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
The problem I have with politics on a language forum is that such discussions are inevitably as simplistic and ill-informed as
discussions about language on political forums.

Edited by AlexTG on 13 August 2015 at 12:32am

6 persons have voted this message useful



PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5236 days ago

821 posts - 1273 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 175 of 178
13 August 2015 at 12:38am | IP Logged 
kanewai wrote:
Josquin wrote:
In any case, a lot of interesting members who used to contribute very
insightful posts have either left the forum (ProfArguelles, Arekkusu, lingoleng) or
have been banned (Cainntear). This has changed the climate of the forum notably. To
me, the old discussions they used to contribute to were more interesting than the ones
we're having right now.


I miss the types of intellectual discussions I see in the archives too. I've seen
some start in the past year, but they seem to fade out quickly.

I think having an absentee owner explains part of the shift. He set the tone for the
original HTLAL, and he was active in the more academic / intellectual threads.

The banning of Caintear was traumatic for a lot of people, and I also sensed a change
afterwards. I hope that in any new HTLAL (or user-owned HTLAL) we could allow for
time-outs or temporary suspensions. The mods had to put a stop to the Caintear/Benny
fight, and it's a shame there weren't intermediary options between 'warning' and
'banning.'

Juan wrote:
If a conversation becomes too stimulating and involved, it is locked for
transgressing a strict topical boundary or degree of disagreement


Does this actually happen? It seems like a straw man argument. There was a recent
thread on Arabic that touched on colonialism, history, conflict, the Arab Spring,
immigration to Europe, economics, religion ... and wasn't locked down at all.


http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=40662&PN=0&TPN=7

Can you give a single example of a topic that was actually shut down for
"transgressing a strict topical boundary?"




This thread I started was shut down
The dark side of
language dominance

1 person has voted this message useful



daegga
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Austria
lang-8.com/553301
Joined 4281 days ago

1076 posts - 1792 votes 
Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian
Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic

 
 Message 176 of 178
13 August 2015 at 12:44am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
whereas in linguistic discussions native speakers have the authority.


They shouldn't have. I trust a proper corpus study more than the word of a random
native speaker. Too many misconceptions about the own language. It's good to hear
their perspective, but if we assume they give authoritative answers, we can stop
discussing and open a Q&A section instead ;)


5 persons have voted this message useful



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