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Serpent’s log

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mankso
Pentaglot
Newbie
Canada
esperanto.memlink.ca
Joined 5138 days ago

10 posts - 10 votes
Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto, Spanish, French
Studies: Irish

 
 Message 49 of 119
25 September 2007 at 12:28pm | IP Logged 
Unulingvaj leksikonoj pri/de Esperanto:
PV - Plena Vortaro de Esperanto [tre oportuna poŝformata, ĉi-momente elĉerpita, nova eldono pretigata, ofte brokante ankoraŭ trovebla]
http://katalogo.uea.org/katalogo.php?inf=5185
PIV - Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto
http://katalogo.uea.org/katalogo.php?inf=6679
NPIV - nova Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto [estas pluraj eldonoj: 1970, 2002, 2005]

PV and/or PIV are essential items for any serious Esperanto-speaker.



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awake
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5483 days ago

406 posts - 438 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Esperanto, Spanish

 
 Message 50 of 119
25 September 2007 at 7:15pm | IP Logged 
Hi Serpent :)

Here's the quote from the 16 Grammar Rules of Esperanto

Rule 14: Every preposition has a definite and permanent meaning, but if we have to use a preposition and the
direct meaning doesn't tell us what preposition we should take, then we use the preposition JE, which has no
independent meaning. Instead of je the accusative without a preposition may be used.

Je is generally only used when there aren't any prepositions that give you the meaning you need.

For example, in English we say "He bets on horses".   In Esperanto, you might be tempted to say

Li vetas sur ĉevaloj but that means literally, he bets while he is physically on multiple horses.   The preposition
sur has a very narrowly defined meaning (having to do with physical location).    There's really no specific
preposition that has the meaning you need to link betting with horses.   So we use "je" and let it acquire the
meaning we need.     

Li vetas je ĉevaloj.

So basically, je is used only when another preposition won't do.

Note: it's often used with expressions of time.    Ni manĝos je la dua (horo). = We will eat at two.   Li venos je
lundo = he will come on Monday.

etc...

=====================
for your sample sentences, I think several prepositions would fit.

Ni ĉiam kantas kun ĝojo = We always are singing with joy

Ni ĉiam kantas sen ĝojo   = We always are singing without joy

Ni ĉiam kantas pro ĝojo   =   We always are singing because of joy (we feel joy and it makes/inspires us sing) (I
disagree with the sugguestion "de ĝojo" = from joy, I think pro ĝojo is better)

(also, not on your list of suggestions but perfectly valid)
Ni ĉiam kantas pri ĝojo   = We always are singing about joy (i.e. songs with lyrics about joy)


Hope that helps :)
------------------

Serpent wrote:
I hurt my leg yesterday so I have some more free time now...
Tried the basic exam at lernu.net just out of curiosity. Scored 44. Surprisingly, all my mistakes were in the
grammar section - although the reason of almost all of them is lack of vocabulary. I understand all my mistakes
except this one:
# Ni ĉiam kantas je ĝojo.
Nekorekte      (Devus esti "sen/pri/kun/de")

f***ing prepositions again... *sighs*

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awake
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5483 days ago

406 posts - 438 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Esperanto, Spanish

 
 Message 51 of 119
25 September 2007 at 7:22pm | IP Logged 
mankso wrote:

PV and/or PIV are essential items for any serious Esperanto-speaker.


Unfortunately the cost of them is fairly prohibitive for a lot of learners.   Especially when the reta vortaro (Internet
Dictionary) is available. It's reasonably complete enough to meet most needs.

ReVo

And the dictionary at lernu is pretty basic, but still sufficient for most needs. It's usually the first place I look
because it's more convenient.
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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5444 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 52 of 119
27 September 2007 at 10:09am | IP Logged 
Varo: Plena ilustrita vortaro d...

omg! is it dangerous? ;)

(varo is the Finnish for beware :D)

at least its price is sure dangerous for my purse :/


Thanks a lot, Awake! :)
I thought all prepositions except je only had a literal meaning that deals with physical location...

that doesn't seem to follow the rule you mentioned, but who cares...

De is used in many ways, for expressing many things, like moving away, origin, cause, time or a property (respectively).
Mi venas de la urbo. - I come from the city.
Mi ricevis kison de vi. - I received a kiss from you.
Mi ridas de ĝojo. - I laugh from joy.
De nun mi amas vin. - From now on, I love you.
Glaso de biero. - Glass of beer (a glass, which contains beer)
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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5444 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 53 of 119
31 October 2007 at 6:28am | IP Logged 
On Sunday, I was at Moscow Languages Festival organised by EK MASI, the Esperanto club of Moscow. It was great!!!
The festival consisted of blocks of language presentations. Unfortunately, I missed the first one, and upon arriving I went to the presentation of extint and nearly extint languages that was held by Villi Melnikov. (I believe there’s a thread about him somewhere in the forum). Unlike many people whose reviews about the festival I’ve read, I found him a very nice person. However, I’ve become more sceptical about him than I used to be, cause I put down his explanations of the meanings of some words that come from minority languages, but neither google nor wiki confirms any of these. Here are the words:

Taiga - means “the house of spirits/ancestors” in a Siberian language
Texas - means “our land” in a native American language
Lena (a river in Siberia) - means “a river with twisting banks”

Then I went to the Esperanto “lingua territory” where you can practise the language. I spoke Esperanto for the first time in my life!!!!! I wasn’t as good as I could be, and I realized I still suck in using tabelvortojn spontaneously, but I’m happy anyway:)

After that I went to the presentation of Icelandic. Frankly speaking I chose it mostly because I really liked the guy who spoke about it:) Even though I was at his presentation at last year’s festival, I learnt quite a lot of interesting things about Icelandic. I’d say that was the best of the presentations I went to. Too bad I can’t understand if Icelandic is really such a beautiful language or is it just his pronunciation:)

Then there was a presentation of Yiddish, which dealt mostly with the difficult history of the language. Practically nothing new for me.

During the last two blocks I chose languages I knew next to nothing about: Assyrian and Tatar. I really liked the presentations of both. Tatar was yummmy both figuratively and literally, cause “chakchak” was offered:)

After the presentations there was a very good concert:) The festival managed to make me not only want to learn almost all languages in the world, but also to start attending belly dance classes once again:) Althought looks like lack of time is going to prevent me from this - and also from wanderlust.
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 5550 days ago

9078 posts - 16472 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 54 of 119
31 October 2007 at 9:18pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Too bad I can’t understand if Icelandic is really such a beautiful language or is it just his pronunciation:)


I can assure that it is, - and even more Old Norse (which is so close to Modern Icelandic that you only need to learn one of them to understand the other one).

The single most important thing to give the language its special flavour is the use of subjectless sentences or phrases with the subject after the verbs and no 'dummy word' to fill out the empty space; this and the lack of an indefinite article gives at its best moments the language a stark and forceful character, which fits the notion of the Icelandic people as direct heirs of the vikings. The old bards also used alliteration ('stavrim') to give their poems (and sometimes prose) a rythmical drive:

Reiðr* var þa Vingþórr,
er hann vacnaþi
oc sins hamars
vm sacnaði;
scegg nam at hrista,
sca/r nam at dyia,
reþ Iarþar bvrr
vm at þreifaz.

(in some sources Vreiðr - one 'stavrim' more!)
....

Angry got then Vingthor
as he awakened
and his hammer
around missed.
Beard (he) took to shake
Hair took to toss
In vain (?) Earth's son
around to grope

(from the "Þrymskviða", which is a ghastly story about a clever blacksmith who by an evil king was exiled with severed leg tendons to an empty island, where he succeded in taking revenge by catching, killing and cooking the sons of the king and serving them as dinner to their own father)

Notice how the word order is different from the ordinary word order in English. I have checked several translations into English and Danish, but all of them try to regularize the language and therefore they all totally lack the 'punch' of the original - a common problem with translations from Old Norse!


Edited by Iversen on 31 October 2007 at 9:55pm

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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5444 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 55 of 119
21 November 2007 at 2:10pm | IP Logged 
Learning some really basic Croatian ;) guess why:D

It looks very interesting btw:) and seems somewhat more regular than Russian. Now I'm tempted to try reading some bilingual books in order to gain passive skills in the language:) But perhaps it's better to wait until I'm more fluent in Belarusian...

Anyway:

Sretno, Croacio!
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5444 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 56 of 119
06 December 2007 at 12:51pm | IP Logged 
A stupid question about Latin: is cc read as kts (e.g. in occīdĕre)? We're learning classical Latin at the university...


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