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Farley
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 Message 65 of 90
10 April 2007 at 3:51pm | IP Logged 
Ari wrote:
It does feel impossible at least for me to do it, but maybe it's easier than it seems, or maybe I'm just not very good. I have problems remembering what the speaker said a second ago when doing the FSI drills.


I know the feeling. I tried shadowing just after trying Pimsleur and was just as lost. There is defiantly a skill to shadowing or chorusing separate from language learning. It must have something to with aural abilities, at least the ones I don’t have. I’m green with envy of those who can.

That gets me to the point I wanted to make, even though listening only brought me to a certain point (and then left me high and dry) it got me past a certain point. Instead of having to work very hard at pronunciation, I just listened until I was able to do the “see it and say it” style workbook exercises and read dialogs.

Shadowing comes with practice, but how much, at least for some of us? That is the point of a listen only tactic at the beginning of language study, to give your ear a chance to adapt. Once you are to the point when you can start speaking you will have to change tactics, but at least the listening will move you past the initial pronunciation difficulties.

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jeff_lindqvist
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 Message 66 of 90
10 April 2007 at 4:39pm | IP Logged 
Something just struck me - shadowing exists in other disciplines than language learning. At least I have "shadowed" a lot when I "learned" thousands of Irish fiddle tunes. I just put on any record and "played along". In the beginning my ears weren't that good but they got better and better. OK, I could never shadow a tune "perfectly" (bearing in mind that they are played at rapid speed - several notes per second), but I developed the skill so I could easily learn a tune after just a few rounds at half-speed (to the amazement of my fellow musicians).
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frenkeld
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 Message 67 of 90
10 April 2007 at 4:49pm | IP Logged 
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
I could easily learn a tune after just a few rounds at half-speed


Many of us have used Audacity to speed up slow dialogs, but it can also be used to slow down audiobooks, radio broadcasts, etc. Perhaps something to try, although not at half-speed, of course.


Edited by frenkeld on 10 April 2007 at 4:50pm

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Farley
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 Message 68 of 90
10 April 2007 at 5:02pm | IP Logged 
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
At least I have "shadowed" a lot when I "learned" thousands of Irish fiddle tunes.

The term for that is Audiation.

I actually got a chance to meet the Dr Gordon, who coined the term. Rather than give my one off explanation he gave me I'll just quote his own words:

Edwin E. Gordon wrote:

From: Learning Sequences in Music: Skill, Content, and Patterns

Although music is not a language, the process is the same for audiating and giving meaning to music as for thinking and giving meaning to speech. When you are listening to speech, you are giving meaning to what was just said by recalling and making connections with what you have heard on earlier occasions. At the same time, you are anticipating or predicting what you will be hearing next, based on your your experience and understanding. Similarly, when you are listening to music, you are giving meaning to what you just heard by recalling what you have heard on earlier occasions. At the same time, you are anticipating or predicting what you are hearing next, based on your musical achievement. In other words, when you are audiating as you are listening to music, you are summarizing and generalizing from the specific music patterns you have just heard as a way to anticipate or predict what will follow. Every action becomes an interaction. What you are audiating depends on what you have already audiated. As audiation develops, the broader and deeper it becomes and thus the more it is able to reflect on itself. Members of an audience who are not audiating usually do not know when a piece of unfamiliar, or even familiar, music is nearing its end. They may applaud at any time, or not at all, unless they receive clues from others in the audience who are audiating. Through the process of audiation, we sing and move in our minds, without ever having to sing and move physically



Edited by Farley on 10 April 2007 at 5:03pm

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maxb
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 Message 69 of 90
11 April 2007 at 6:04am | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:
What are the disadvantages of the chorus method? I see one of practicality.   


I see no real disadvantages when it comes to internalizing the intonation of a language. Furthermore nothing prevents you from combining the chorus method with extensive listening. I mostly agree with the listening approach when it comes to that you should stay away from free production in the language until you have internalized a great deal of it. However I am not sure that prounuciation will automatically take care of itself just by listening. Actually it doesn't for children either. The babbling stage that most children go through before they start speaking "for real" is, from what I have read, a way for them to practice and play with the intonation of the surrounding language.
The main point about using the chorus method is to internalize the prosody (melody and rhythm) of the language. Many researchers believe that the successful language acquistion of a child depends on how well they have mastered the prosody of the language. Children learn prosody first before they master the individual sounds. Olle Kjellin beleives that if children learn the prosody first, so should adults. Thus the chorus method is a way for adults to master the prosody of the language they are learning, to the level that they have mastered the prosody of their native language.
If you spend a couple of weeks on the learning the prosody of the language you are learning the rest of the language acquisition will become so much easier. You will be able to imitate sentences in the language much quicker. Also when you hear an unknown word you will be able to pronunce it right away.
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Farley
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 Message 70 of 90
11 April 2007 at 8:00am | IP Logged 
Based on the feedback from Maxb, Slucido and others to this topic, it sounds as if that listen, chorusing and shadowing are just logical stages of an auditory process, rather than distinct options for internalizing sound.
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reineke
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 Message 71 of 90
11 April 2007 at 10:29am | IP Logged 
Echoing: repeating after the speaker is finished

Chorusing: no written text to follow, you repeat with a split second delay after the speaker. It's possible to do with audio tapes.

Shadowing - following a tape mentally?

He edits the tape for gaps. Then

"I then shadow this tape repeatedly until I begin to grow familiar with the pronunciation and intonation, and until I have figured out as much as I can of what is being said on my own. Then I turn to the book and shadow while reading the teaching language so that I understand globally what I have been saying. Slowly I switch to shadowing while reading the target language so that I learn to read it. Each day I go through the notes of several lessons to catch the fine points. When I have done them all, I then write or type out the target language lessons in their entirety, sometimes several times. In other words, I thoroughly internalize the contents of both books and tapes. I know that I am "done" when I can successfully "play" the advanced lessons through my brain while I am taking a shower."

The first part would be very difficult to do aloud in the very beginning. Shadowing somehow suggests silence.

Edited by reineke on 11 April 2007 at 10:34am

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mjcdchess
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 Message 72 of 90
11 April 2007 at 3:07pm | IP Logged 
It sounds like if you listened enough you would become familar with the words and phrases but not actually know what they all mean. That perhaps would make actual vocabulary learning eaiser.


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