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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4402 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 105 of 489
16 July 2007 at 11:15am | IP Logged 
sergiu wrote:
siomotteikiru wrote:
But all of the above must be done in one go, stopping only for eating and sleeping.

Isn't this extreme?Or maybe it was just a joke.
People should abandon work and any other activity for this "l-r-ing"?
I thought that the best way to learn a language is to do a little of it each day .


This is another point at which I have diverged from the method described on page 1. I simply can't spend 8 to 10 hours per day in constant meditation with this, or with any other method. For me, it would take the fun out of this. And I want this to be fun. If not, I would stick with FSI.

For me, 3 hours a day was too much - I tried it with Verne, and it left me almost too burnt out to do my 1.5h with Dickens later in the day. I wrote a much longer post about this just above this post, so I won't go on in this one, except to say that, for this method to work for me, one of the first things I decided to do away with was the several-hour-a-day committment, in favor of styles more conducive to the way I learn.
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reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 4490 days ago

851 posts - 1007 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 106 of 489
16 July 2007 at 11:36am | IP Logged 
Hi FSI I think you missed this so I will try to ask again. Simotteikiru clearly stated you're supposed to do an intensive course for 50-60 hours and that was it. After that you could chill out. The best course/method is the one that works the best for you. I believe it's rather that the best way not to forget a language is to do a little each day. The initial course is another matter. US servicemen often do intensive courses well above the 50 hour limit.

What was your previous knowledge of French? Italian? How many hours did you roughly spend on it? How long did you study Spanish? You say you were not able to tell the French tenses apart. Major ones? You have swept the book some 3 times. How many hours did you spend on Verne?
I'd like to differentiate between finding out that reading and listening to audiobooks is good for you (something we kinda knew) vs. this particular method - reading/following translations intensively for a short period of time. This method was supposed to create amazing results after some 50-60 hours for absolute beginners. I understand you had a bit of an advantage as you were not an absolute beginner in French and you had been learning Spanish for a year and you've been stabbing at Italian. You have to do some 4 more sweeps so it's early to tell. You're taking long breaks and doing too many other things at the same time and from what I read here you're not really supposed to do that.
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4402 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 107 of 489
16 July 2007 at 11:42am | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:
Hi FSI

Thanks for sharing. I have a few questions if you please.
What was your previous knowledge of French? Italian? How many hours did you roughly spend on it? How long did you study Spanish? You say you were not able to tell the French tenses apart. Major ones? You have swept the book some 3 times. How many hours did you spend on Verne?
I'd like to differentiate between finding out that reading and listening to audiobooks is good for you (something we kinda knew) vs. this particular method - reading/following translations intensively for a short period of time. This method was supposed to create amazing results after some 50-60 hours for absolute beginners. I understand you had a bit of an advantage as you were not an absolute beginner in French and you had been learning Spanish for a year and you've been stabbing at Italian. You have to do some 4 more sweeps so it's early to tell. You're taking long breaks and doing too many other things at the same time and from what I read here you're not really supposed to do that.


Hi reineke! I'll go through these one by one.

1. Previous knowledge of French came from completing the Michel Thomas courses last year, as well as the Learn in your Car courses this Spring. Both were repeated several times (I like sweeping through courses to pick them clean). Besides that, I've done no formal study, though I've spent lots of time listening to French music (my main motivation for learning the language), and lots of time listening to Radio France Internationale.

But in terms of actual courses, just the two above. I started FSI French this year, but I haven't completed it once. I made it up to halfway through unit 4, but...that program is impossibly dull - it makes FSI Spanish seem interesting in comparison, which, in itself is no small feat.

This said, I could certainly tell the tenses apart in *speech*, and at my peak, felt relatively comfortable expressing myself orally in the language, as long as the sentences were simple ones, and I wasn't required to use the subjunctive beyond "Il faut + infinitive". That and listening to the language have always been my greatest strengths.

But in terms of reading? Beyond news articles, which are usually transparent enough to get the gist of anything, I stayed away from literary material because although I could easily maneuver through "I speak/I was speaking/I will speak/I could speak" *orally*, I couldn't tell them apart on *paper*, since I never studied the language on paper. Simply put, I couldn't spell, and I didn't know any of the verb endings visually - any of them. This has unequivocally changed with the use of this method.

With Italian, the story is similar: Michel Thomas - though only the beginner course - and Learn in your car, which I swept through 10 times last year. After this, again, I could express myself simply in the language, though not as well as in French. However, I made no attempt at reading in the language, and found far harder to understand aurally than French or Spanish. After the MT and LIYC courses last year, I left the language alone.

Spanish is my strongest of the three by far. After completing FSI 2 - 4 several times, the language simply makes sense. Like with French, I listen to a lot of music in the language, and would be more than happy to give artist recommendations. That, plus radio, and film, takes care of aural comprehension. My main weaknesses in the language are primarily in matters of vocabulary.

Vis-a-vis reading time for Verne, see the post slightly behind this one. I've spent approximately 25 hours on Verne now (24 hours from the last 3 sweeps, 1 hour from today).

About the amazing results? I have no idea what they'll bring, or where I'll be at the end of 7 sweeps of each book. But for me, what's happening already is already something of worth. My best advice is to tune the method on page 1 to your own modifications, and see where you end up!

Finally, about diverging from the page 1 style? Certainly. See my two previous posts for more on that. I 'm not trying to replicate siomotteikiru's methods or results, but to take that method, make it suit mine, and see what I get out of it. As stated before, there were parts I didn't quite agree with, and there were other parts I wished to explore that weren't in the original method - so I made my own! If I had not, perhaps I would not have attempted anything like this at all. But however I can make it fit me more, I've got to try it, and see where it takes me. Good luck!
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reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 4490 days ago

851 posts - 1007 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 108 of 489
16 July 2007 at 11:49am | IP Logged 
Thanks, the only problem I see is that what you're doing is no longer the original method. Were the Verne sweeps done in large chunks? Hopefully Volte will have a more measurable progress report.
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4402 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 109 of 489
16 July 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:
Thanks, the only problem I see is that what you're doing is no longer the original method. Were the Verne sweeps done in large chunks? Hopefully Volte will have a more measurable progress report.


I mostly read a chapter or two at a time. Each chapter is between 8 and 17 minutes long, though the majority of them are approximately 14 minutes in length. At a certain point, when I find myself checking the time on my media player and longing for the end of the chapter, I know it's time to take a break.

And yup, I'll admit this is no longer the original method - not at all. I'm quite interested in reading of other people's progress with the overall l-r style, however - whether they used the page 1 technique, modified it into their own, or come to the table with an entirely different technique from another source. Hopefully more people who try this - however they try it - will report back!
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HTale
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4421 days ago

164 posts - 167 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written)*
Studies: French

 
 Message 110 of 489
16 July 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged 
Volte wrote:
It seemed extremely useful for German too, but I decided to try to do a previously unknown-to-me language, in a branch of Indo-European I have no experience with, for the sake of experimenting. I'll stick to Polish for at least a week before seriously considering branching out and using this method for other languages.


Please keep us posted!
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jeff_lindqvist
Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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4251 posts - 5711 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French
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 Message 111 of 489
16 July 2007 at 12:13pm | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:
Thanks, the only problem I see is that what you're doing is no longer the original method. Were the Verne sweeps done in large chunks? Hopefully Volte will have a more measurable progress report.


But is it really that important to the entire volume in L1 before listening-reading L2? Even if I haven't tried this (yet) I have about the same feelings as Iversen regarding "getting lost" after one page, no matter how interesting the story may be. With that in mind, I definitely see FSI's point of taking one chapter at a time (or even less), but then it's "only" a few hours per day, and not eight hours (or whatever the original method suggests).

Anyway, I will try this as soon as the audiobooks I'm after are returned to the library.
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Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 4482 days ago

4475 posts - 6725 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 112 of 489
16 July 2007 at 12:36pm | IP Logged 
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
reineke wrote:
Thanks, the only problem I see is that what you're doing is no longer the original method. Were the Verne sweeps done in large chunks? Hopefully Volte will have a more measurable progress report.


But is it really that important to the entire volume in L1 before listening-reading L2? Even if I haven't tried this (yet) I have about the same feelings as Iversen regarding "getting lost" after one page, no matter how interesting the story may be. With that in mind, I definitely see FSI's point of taking one chapter at a time (or even less), but then it's "only" a few hours per day, and not eight hours (or whatever the original method suggests).

Anyway, I will try this as soon as the audiobooks I'm after are returned to the library.


I haven't found 'getting lost' to be a problem at all. With both German and Polish, the latter of which I'd -never- previously studied (nor any Slavic language), I got confused as to where I was in the English by more than two sentences only a handful of times. Proper nouns are great for realigning oneself - and, especially after the first perhaps half hour or hour, it just isn't that hard to keep aligned if one is -only- reading the L1. Reading the L1 and glancing at the L2, I get lost a lot more - still not that often, but it breaks flow and the correspondence of L1 text and L2 audio for me, and annoys me. I'm hoping for suggestions on how to reduce or eliminate this effect.

The book I used was "Animal Farm". I jumped right into listen-reading (step 3) with it, as I'd previously read it (albeit years ago), and dividing Polish into words mentally came very quickly. I found, back in 2004, that I could divide Japanese into words after perhaps 3 (certainly not more than 6) hours of listening to online radio stations, and Polish has the same kind of staccato clarity as Japanese and German, so this worked well; I was dividing Polish words I listened, -without- looking at the L2 (due to a software glitch - I was having to use Abiword, which was behaving extremely buggily, until I fixed a problem with OpenOffice), within perhaps 30 minutes.

My progress report so far is a little sad, as I've only put in ~5.5 hours, yesterday and the day before, listening-reading Polish, and the ~1.5 hours yesterday were looking primarily at the Polish, which I found rather unsatisfying, and which I -think- siomotteikiru just warned against. Despite this, I'd say that my Polish is better than my Persian at this point (except for small talk, since I don't know how to say things like "hi" or "how are you" - but in terms of passive understanding of connectives, grammar, vocabulary, etc). Words stick much better for me with this method than they did with Assimil Persian, and I don't find myself mixing up connectives.

I'm working on adjusting my schedule and gathering materials; I'd be -very happy-, given a sufficient idea of what methods to use as a baseline, and enough materials, to do 10+ hours a day of Polish for a week and report on the results, but for these past 3 days, I've been falling far short of that. I've spent several hours today reading "The Master and Margarita" in English to prepare for listening-reading it.



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