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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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luke
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 Message 121 of 489
17 July 2007 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
Farley wrote:
The whole process above is consistent with what Ardaschir and others have written about using the dual-text approach.

Consistent, but not the same as Ardaschir's approach. As I understand the approaches, here are some high level differences:
Ardaschir's method does a little each day. One can develop proficiency with 15 minutes per day, every day, over the course of a few years. He had no ATTACK to learn a language in a in a few weeks.
Ardaschir listened and shadowed (spoke at the same time as the recording) before he necessarily even knew what he was saying. Listening-reading postpones speaking until after you can understand the spoken language (natural listening).
Ardaschir started with Assimil, which is a relatively short book and amount of audio (2-3 hours once edited). Listening-Reading suggests starting with 10-20 times that amount of material.
When you've advanced to audiobooks, Ardaschir's method has you shadowing the audio while reading the target language. As I understand it, listening-reading has you speaking a split second afterwards, without the aid of a book.

Similarities include that both methods employ parallel texts and audio. Ardaschir liked the old Linguaphone courses which had the same content regardless of language, which is similar in concept to listening-reading step 1, although listening-reading wants you to love the material.

I don't claim to be an expert on either method. It's possible that I have misunderstood both methods. I'm interested if you all are noticing and understanding the differences I have outlined, and am also curious what other differences you notice.

I have a couple of questions: Other than step 2 and 5, I don't see where you are using the target language book. Originally I thought one gradually migrated from one's learning language to the target language as the target language became comprehensible. Is that correct?

I understand LSD1 is the language you know well, and LSD2 is the target language, but what does LSD stand for?

Edited by luke on 17 July 2007 at 12:35pm

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Farley
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 Message 122 of 489
17 July 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged 
luke wrote:
I'm interested if you all are noticing and understanding the differences I have outlined, and am also curious what other differences you notice.


I agree with the difference you outlined above. He took on one thing at a time, sound, meaning and then text. He’d cover this over a series of months. Also depending on the difficulty of the language he would drill after completing an Assimil text. (For the novice learner any language will be difficult). He also had a graded approach to reading starting with easy reads to progressively more difficult works.

Fanatic outlines a similar approach in his use of Assimil, but his tactics completely different.

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siomotteikiru
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 Message 123 of 489
17 July 2007 at 1:00pm | IP Logged 
Ardaschir is sure a great man, quite unlike me.
Pity I didn't meet Him here.

There's one more minor difference, two: I have plenty of readily available materials for listening-reading in many languages, and I DO share.
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frenkeld
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 Message 124 of 489
17 July 2007 at 1:16pm | IP Logged 
luke wrote:
Ardaschir's method does a little each day. ... He had no ATTACK to learn a language in a few weeks.


I remember some of his posts talking about knocking all the pauses out of Assimil recordings, and then going off into the woods with the headphones on and the Assimil text in his hands. He clearly used Assimil as a continuous audiobook of sorts to break into a new language. It's only afterwards that he would also do it lesson by lesson.

I do see quite a few similarities between "reading-listening" and Ardaschir's approach. One of them is starting with the translation, instead of working with the original and using the translation only to look up difficult spots or as a check. Listening to the target language while reading in the base language, something Ardaschir does with Assimil courses, is another striking common feature that is extremely non-standard.

Exactly when you start shadowing may be an important detail for developing good pronunciation, but it doesn't detract from the similarities.

What I found of great interest is that this thread's method fuses three separate elements in Ardaschir's approach, namely, using Assimil as a kind of audiobook and reading it in the base language first, dual-language reading of literarure starting from the base language, and audiobooks of literary works.

The claim is that this fusion is not just a variation on the old tune(s), but that it takes language-learning to a whole new level, taking all the hard work out of learning a language that is so noticeable even in Ardaschir's accounts, as well as those of Kato Lomb and Barry Farber.

If true, it is a major advance. If true. When it doesn't work out, one can always try this approach as just a form of practice upon reaching intermediate stage by conventional means. Precisely because of the overlap with some of the more unusual aspects of Ardaschir's techniques, whose experiences provide an important additional data point, I feel that in this "intermediate mode" it is non-controversial and likely to work for many of us, subject only to the pesky issue of finding the audiobooks.


Edited by frenkeld on 18 July 2007 at 2:18am

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frenkeld
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 Message 125 of 489
17 July 2007 at 1:19pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
Ardaschir is sure a great man, quite unlike me.


Don't worry about fame. If your method works as advertised, I will start working on a monument to The Unknown Pole in my backyard.

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Farley
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 Message 126 of 489
17 July 2007 at 1:29pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
Ardaschir is sure a great man, quite unlike me.


Forgive us; we're just taking a new idea out for a spin.

John

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siomotteikiru
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 Message 127 of 489
17 July 2007 at 2:06pm | IP Logged 
I like spinning like an electron, which is Greek for amber, in case it's Greek to you.

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luke
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 Message 128 of 489
17 July 2007 at 5:51pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
luke wrote:
Ardaschir's method...


I remember some of his posts talking about knocking all the pauses out of Assimil recordings, and then going off into the woods with the headphones on and the Assimil text in his hands. He clearly used Assimil as a continuous audiobook of sorts to break into a new language. It's only afterwards that he would also do it lesson by lesson.


I like your characterization of his method. He definitely talked about walking around while reading, but I didn't pick up that he was doing that with his Assimil book in the woods.

frenkeld wrote:
I do see quite a few similarities between "reading-listening" and Ardaschir's approach. One of them is starting with the translation, instead of working with the original and using the translation only to look up difficult spots or as a check.


And that is one of the areas where I was never clear on his method. For everyone's benefit, here is an extended quote.

Ardaschir wrote:
I edit the tapes by getting rid of all the gaps so that I obtain at least two hours of solid and continuous narrative in the target language only. I then shadow this tape repeatedly until I begin to grow familiar with the pronunciation and intonation, and until I have figured out as much as I can of what is being said on my own. Then I turn to the book and shadow while reading the teaching language so that I understand globally what I have been saying. Slowly I switch to shadowing while reading the target language so that I learn to read it. Each day I go through the notes of several lessons to catch the fine points. When I have done them all, I then write or type out the target language lessons in their entirety, sometimes several times. In other words, I thoroughly internalize the contents of both books and tapes. I know that I am "done" when I can successfully "play" the advanced lessons through my brain while I am taking a shower. Depending on the difficulty of the lesson, I might have to listen to the tapes hundreds of times, and likewise repeatedly review the book. However, by taking a chunk of the language like this and peeling it layer by layer like an onion so that you come to ever greater understanding of how it works, this rarely grows boring, and when it
does, I am advanced enough to move on. With "easy" languages, I can then generally cope fully with both texts and all sorts of conversation, with "difficult" languages I then go through systematic grammatical exercises and begin reading primers.


Thank you for your comments. I can now see better now what he was saying.

frenkeld wrote:
What I found of great interest is that this thread's method fuses three separate elements in Ardaschir's approach, namely, using Assimil as a kind of audiobook and reading it in the base language first, dual-language reading starting from the base language, and audiobooks of literary works.


I'm with you there. I think it's also important not to discount the differences. The Assimil book is clearly not the type of literature that Miss Hopper has been referring to, but its bilingual format, audio, and even helpful grammatical comments all make it a potential source for her "misuse" of the course. *

* "misuse" is a term coined by Farley that really means a clever alternative approach to a course. There is nothing derrogatory about "misuse" in this context. In fact, it's a complement.

Using Assimil as the source for the listening-reading technique would be an interesting misuse of both Assimil and siomotteikiru's method.

Have you figured out what the LSD1/LSD2 acronyms are?

Do you see which steps are using the target language to learn to read?

Edited by luke on 17 July 2007 at 6:00pm



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