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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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asad100101
Diglot
Senior Member
Pakistan
languagel.blogspot.c
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118 posts - 137 votes 
Speaks: Hindi*, English

 
 Message 153 of 489
24 July 2007 at 5:59am | IP Logged 
Wow, Your English skills are awesome! Is it your first language?
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4521 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 154 of 489
24 July 2007 at 11:05am | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:

1. freedom from all sorts of crooks: schools, teachers, textbook publishers etc

2. joy (I’ll always remember Krashen: “"The best methods are therefore those that supply 'comprehensible input' in low anxiety situations, containing messages that students really want to hear. These methods do not force early production in the second language, but allow students to produce when they are 'ready', recognizing that improvement comes from supplying communicative and comprehensible input, and not from forcing and correcting production." Stephen Krashen
I particularly like the “low anxiety situations”. What about “joy and love” instead?

3. beauty: Good literature might not be as good as Assimil or Pimsleur, but it has its merits, too.

4. saves you tremendous amount of toil, time and money (you can throw away dictionaries, flashcards, tests etc)



I comopletely agree with these. Since trying the method, I've put aside my collection of FSI material, and have instead sought audiobooks, novels, and translations - and I'm having a lot more fun for it, too.

I listen-read in the languages, and I enjoy music in the languages. There is no strife or struggle anymore - or at least, considerably less. It's just...more fun.

And I know it's working each time I find myself reading in one of the languages without struggle, or understanding music or radio conversations without strife. I like this feeling.

Quote:

Languages for me have never been important in themselves, what I really like are stories (told, written and shown) and poetry. I do not give a damn if I forget a language: if I have nothing more to read in it, I abandon it as soon as possible.


I also like this philosophy. The languages themselves are not the ends - merely tools to achieve them. Let them come and go; don't try to keep them forever. If you need one, it'll be there. If you forget it, it will be a trifle to learn it again - even decades later. Just learn what you need, and enjoy the ride.

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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
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646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 155 of 489
24 July 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged 
Pu Yi thanks for your kind words. I can assure you that I do not feed my family with my language system, rather it a is a habit that I feed.

As to "Listening-reading" this is not something that is invented. People have been listening and reading to learn languages for a long time. Some, including siomotteikiru and me, have experimented with listening in one language and reading in another.

When I did it the first time I stopped. I tried listening to the Illiad in French and reading it in English. I listened to Humberto Eco in French and read in Italian. I read "Livlaekerens Besoek" ("The Visit of the Royal Physician") by Per Olov Enquist in English and listened to it in Swedish. I tried it with Living Language Ultimate Russian Advanced since that book provides translations but does not provide a glossary for each lesson. I also did it for Russian stories where I was able to find audio material, The Nose by Gogol, The Stationmaster by Pushkin and Sleepy by Chekhov. I gave it up. It did not do much for me. I either needed to read in the target language and learn words in Russian, a language which I was not good at, or else I just wanted to read or listen in languages that I was already quite good at, Swedish, French and Italian.

I have never enjoyed bi-lingual books because I find them distracting, although I own many. But I use them, faute de mieux, because they are portable, and usually prepared word lists are not available for the material I want to read in another language. Language texts usually have boring content and interesting content is sometimes only available in bi-lingual book form.

What has inspired to try it again are two things. One is that my shhhhh system is now operational so I can read in Russian, look up the words,review the words and learn the words using a variety of techniques.

Two is the point made by siomotteikiru that one needs to get immersed in the new language and listening-reading is a way to do this. So instead of listening a little, I listen more. I do not read Russian as comfortably as I read the other languages I mentioned, so L-R allows me to enjoy Anna Karenina without missing anything. Then after 30 minutes of reading I go to my computer and use my sshhhhh system, while a lot of details are still fresh in my mind. Now, when reading I have a better sense of details, and can make better decisions on the meanings of words suggested to me by my online dictionary.

I have encouraged others to try this approach. I am curious to know at what level it is most appropriate. Siomotteikiru suggests that we can start doing this from scratch, which I doubt. I suspect easier material will be necessary. However, if we can find the right material I think it is an alternative to Pimselur or Assimil. I should mention that I went and bought a Living Language series in Arabic just to try it. I sort of enjoyed listening to Arabic while reading English. However, I have no easy means of reading in Arabic and looking up words and saving them. And I have no easy content to try it with. So this experiment is on the shelf for now.

I have asked our members to try it. One reported that she was unable to listen in Spanish (although she knows some of the language) and read in English at the same time. Another has emailed me to say that he will try.

A few more comments, unlike siomotteikiru I do not believe that schools, teachers textbook publishers etc. are crooks. I may not use their services, but that does not make them crooks. Most people who earn a living at an activity are genuinely interested in doing the job well.

Good literature is a subjective term. We have noticed a general lack of interest in "good literature" at The Linguist. People prefer to learn from other material. In audio books,modern novels outsell the classics. A little humility vis-a-vis the tastes of others is not a bad thing.

I guess the same is true of language learning techniques. However, I think the key is to encourage the learner to be independent. Krashen said that this was the main task of a teacher. If the learner goes to school and does what he/she is told then we can suggest that this learner is not pursuing the best path. However, if a learner experiments and find a way that works for him/her,. then it probably does.

Yes, siomotteikiru, joy and the learners' interest are paramount.

Edited by Zhuangzi on 24 July 2007 at 11:14am

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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5190 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 156 of 489
24 July 2007 at 1:27pm | IP Logged 
A few more comments.

It may be that some people will need to read a translation before listening to a text in a second language while reading in the first. On the other hand I now find that I can just listen to a few more chapters in Anna Karenina while preparing breakfast and cleaning up around the house and get much of the gist. I am then ready to sit down and learn the words from that segment of the book within my system. And of course the longer I stay in Anna Karenina the easier it all becomes.

The question becomes one of efficiency. How much dedicated effort is required for a given amount of progress in the language. If I need to read a translation, and then listen in L2 while reading in L1, and even repeat this process, and still not know the new words, that is a lot of time invested. If I can listen while doing other chores, and then spend some dedicated time reading and accumulating words on the computer, and then go back to listening while doing other things, and then possibly read again from printed material, that pattern may be more enjoyable and represent a better return on time invested. But this will vary with individuals.

The availability of material with audio in the target language and translation may be limited, which is another factor limiting the universal application of this approach. I think it is very important that the content be chosen by the learner.

I do not agree, as siomotteikiru suggests, that any series of learning activities needs to be a set or system, as she suggests. I think we can pick and choose and see what suits our personalities and time constraints. Language learners have to be explorers by nature.

I do agree that,for me, richer contexts are better than short snippets of content, all too common in traditional language learning. I was unable to use the FSI series, even though I tried it for Cantonese and Portuguese. Useless to me. No context.

Many beginner materials suffer from this defect. Random House's Living Language is an extreme example of beginner books that consist of unconnected phrases.

So I will be experimenting with using stories, even for beginners. My prejudice, based on my learning experience, is that a systematic word learning system is needed to back up this accelerated exposure to the language.

To me language learning is first and foremost about words. If we earn ( and I mean earn, not learn (although that also happens) the words through listening, reading and word review, the rest of the language will come.

Edited by Zhuangzi on 24 July 2007 at 1:29pm

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fanatic
Octoglot
Senior Member
Australia
speedmathematics.com
Joined 5308 days ago

1152 posts - 1814 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, French, Afrikaans, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
Studies: Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Modern Hebrew, Malay, Mandarin, Esperanto

 
 Message 157 of 489
24 July 2007 at 6:49pm | IP Logged 
I like what siomotteikiru wrote about this method.
siomotteikiru wrote:

saves you tremendous amount of toil, time and money (you can throw away dictionaries, flashcards, tests etc)

I do not give a damn if I forget a language: if I have nothing more to read in it, I abandon it as soon as possible.

As to my “own ego to feed”: it is strong enough on its own and does not really need any external support. I’d rather say I enjoy teasing people to make them think.


This has been my attitude to learning languages. Some languages I would like to be as fluent as possible. I would like to speak like a native. Most languages I am content to speak to be understood and be able to understand both the written and spoken language.

Some languages I would just like to be able to read and, as a bonus, understand movies or radio broadcasts.

I have written elsewhere that I like to play with languages. I don't go for the hard work, self discipline and drills that some seem to thrive on. Results are what count for me.

siomotteikiru wrote:

As to my “own ego to feed”: it is strong enough on its own and does not really need any external support. I’d rather say I enjoy teasing people to make them think.


That is also a philosophy I wholeheartedly agree with.

Somebody wrote that siomotteikiru is a "he." I am sure I have read elsewhere on the forum that siomotteikiru is a "she." Maybe it was on her website or the personal profile. Regardless, I enjoy your posts and you have certainly given us plenty to think about.
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fanatic
Octoglot
Senior Member
Australia
speedmathematics.com
Joined 5308 days ago

1152 posts - 1814 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, French, Afrikaans, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
Studies: Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Modern Hebrew, Malay, Mandarin, Esperanto

 
 Message 158 of 489
24 July 2007 at 7:02pm | IP Logged 
FSI wrote:

I also like this philosophy. The languages themselves are not the ends - merely tools to achieve them. Let them come and go; don't try to keep them forever. If you need one, it'll be there. If you forget it, it will be a trifle to learn it again - even decades later. Just learn what you need, and enjoy the ride.


Well said. Learning languages should be an enjoyment, not a burden or regarded as hard work.

I love reading. For some kids at school, reading was hard work and something they would stop as soon as they left school. I am a compulsive reader as well as a compulsive language learner. If you want to torture me, put me somewhere by myself without a book to read.

When we had set books to read at school, I had usually already read them. At teachers' college we were given a list of books to read. I had already read most of them simply for enjoyment, but there were student teachers who hated the idea they would have to read a book, so they watched the movie instead.

I don't have to force myself to learn a language. Nor, I think, do most of us on this forum. But we are still inclined to take the whole process too seriously and set impossible standards or get upset with people who disagree with our methods.

Hey, I am here to learn and the more methods put forward the better. I don't think the last word on language learning has been written yet.
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tpiz
Diglot
Groupie
United States
cvillepayne.blogspot
Joined 4526 days ago

77 posts - 79 votes 
Studies: Portuguese, English*, French
Studies: Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 159 of 489
24 July 2007 at 9:40pm | IP Logged 
To zhuangzi, or anyone who is using this method, when you listen and read, do you are listening, do you try to understand the words being spoken and match them to the text, or do you just read and not concentrate on the words being spoken? I see this as being very hard for Japanese since it definitely seems difficult to do that because Japanese has a different sentence structure than most languages.
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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5190 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 160 of 489
24 July 2007 at 10:14pm | IP Logged 
tpiz,

I am fluent in Japanese, and have learned a bit of Korean. The structure of the two languages is similar.

When listening to one language and reading in another you read quickly, jumping forward and backward while following the text in the language you are learning. I tried doing this while listening to Japanese and reading English. I did not find it difficult. I am fluent in both so that may not be so meaningful. Try it yourself. One of our Japanese learners is going to try it. I will let you know how he makes out.


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