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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5365 days ago

3133 posts - 4350 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

 
 Message 265 of 489
04 August 2007 at 1:20pm | IP Logged 
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
How can I know if a translation is "bad", especially in the beginning stages?


It depends on how closely the language you know and the one you are learning are. English and French are related, so one doesn't have to be too proficient to recognize a "bad" translation.

wikipedia wrote:
While Verne is considered in many countries such as France as an author of quality books for young people, with a good command of his subjects, including technology and politics, his reputation in English-speaking countries suffered for a long time from poor translation.


Good old Guttenberg has copies in French and English of Journey to the Center of the Earth and Around the World in Eighty Days. Same author, same genre, same language.

Journey has a good translation. The structure of the sentences is very similar. The translator neither cuts nor adds too much. The English translation is quite readable.

Eighty Days has a poor translation. The translator leaves his boot marks all over the story. Sentences are restructured, rephrased, run-on, omitted, and augmented.   Similarly, paragraphs are at times joined and restructured, changing the rhythm of the story.

Doing a side by side comparison of the original and the translation make the judgement of "good" and "bad" less than entirely subjective.

By the way, in case anyone missed it in her opening post:
siomotteikiru wrote:
PS
As to my English. I'm not a native speaker. I am aware I might sometimes sound too abrupt or patronizing. If so, please forgive me, it was not my intention.



Edited by luke on 04 August 2007 at 1:34pm

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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5188 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 266 of 489
04 August 2007 at 1:57pm | IP Logged 
In language learning, translations are, in my experience, only needed at the beginning. For a language learner, the nearer to word for word translation, the better. Since language learning involves a lot of acceptance of uncertainty and unclarity, the quality of the translation does not really matter that much, it is just an assist in the process of learning a new language.
At LingQ we encourage our learners to translate some of our easier content into their own language and share this with other learners. We do not really worry about the quality.Although if there are major problems someone will tell us.

Reading a translation as a literary experience is different. If the translation is itself not a literary creation, we will have a poor experience and may not continue.The translation is the experience, whereas in language learning the translation is a minor part of the experience.

I do not believe it siomotteikiru's lack of mastery of English, nor even a patronizing attitude that is behind some of her outlandish posts. I suspect it is narrow mindedness, intolerance and a lack of knowledge. The three are often connected.

As language learners and lovers of reading, we need to remember that learning languages or reading the Brothers Kramazov are not more noble activities than gardening or bicycle riding or any other activity. And people who do not read and only speak one language can be just as sincere, honest, generous and loving as anyone else.
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4519 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 267 of 489
04 August 2007 at 2:07pm | IP Logged 
Zhuangzi wrote:

As language learners and lovers of reading, we need to remember that learning languages or reading the Brothers Kramazov are not more noble activities than gardening or bicycle riding or any other activity. And people who do not read and only speak one language can be just as sincere, honest, generous and loving as anyone else.


Very well said.
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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4521 days ago

102 posts - 242 votes 

 
 Message 268 of 489
04 August 2007 at 2:07pm | IP Logged 
Thanks Lucky Luke.

My command of English is rather limited. Though I understand it very well (Shakespeare included), I haven’t been using it for years and I’ve never learned how to write. And my word processor spellchecker is turned off.
I don’t mean to hurt anybody’s feelings. But I like to enrage anybody who likes to be enraged.
And I have no time to carefully choose my words.

As to translators.
I’ve noticed that translations into English (by native speakers of English) are often very poor.
Hans Christian Andersen, the greatest writer and poet who ever lived, was murdered in English.
English translations of Russian and Polish literature are usually just a shadow of the original work.

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MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
Joined 4607 days ago

208 posts - 345 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Thai, Polish

 
 Message 269 of 489
06 August 2007 at 1:32pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
Thanks Lucky Luke.

My command of English is rather limited. Though I understand it very well (Shakespeare included), I haven’t been using it for years and I’ve never learned how to write. And my word processor spellchecker is turned off.
I don’t mean to hurt anybody’s feelings. But I like to enrage anybody who likes to be enraged.
And I have no time to carefully choose my words.

As to translators.
I’ve noticed that translations into English (by native speakers of English) are often very poor.
Hans Christian Andersen, the greatest writer and poet who ever lived, was murdered in English.
English translations of Russian and Polish literature are usually just a shadow of the original work.


Have you read Andersen in Danish?
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 4835 days ago

1296 posts - 1781 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 270 of 489
11 August 2007 at 5:46pm | IP Logged 
Wings wrote:
I’m intrigued by this method of use foreign audio books with written native translation to learn. Has anybody thought of using film scripts for this method? Lots of dialog, there’s still some descriptive narrative in it, and you possibly get to play the part of your favourite movie star, which maybe less boring for some, and something you could keep doing hours on end. You could probably use a DVD I think this has been suggested, but I think a parallel text would be easier to work with, and audio you can store on your mp3.


I am using something like this with films.
I wrote here about the DVD movies method a few months ago:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=5257&KW=DVD+movie

Using a film that you like a lot:

1-Watch the movie in your own language with captions in your target language.

2-Watch the movie in your target language with captions in your own language

3-Watch movie with audio and captions in your target language.

4-Watch movie only with audio in your target language.

It seems the listening-reading system with audio books
put more enphasis on step 2: listening L2 and reading L1.
Or I understand that.

I am using this approach with movies, but sometimes I avoid step 1.

If I have the script, I read it and save the unknown words with freeware (Clips 101,CueCard and dictionaries on line).

I find this method very useful and I guess is more useful
for the average Joe. A lot of people don't like to read.




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audiolang
Diglot
Senior Member
Romania
Joined 4480 days ago

108 posts - 109 votes 
2 sounds
Speaks: Romanian*, English

 
 Message 271 of 489
12 August 2007 at 10:30am | IP Logged 
It's a shame that a lot of people don't like to read,you'll find in books a lot more richer and fulfilling vocabulary than in Star Trek.
Not that I don't find the DVD movies method good but there is one big difficulty,finding the movie in my target language ,how will I do that?

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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 4835 days ago

1296 posts - 1781 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 272 of 489
13 August 2007 at 3:36pm | IP Logged 
audiolang wrote:
It's a shame that a lot of people don't like to read,you'll find in books a lot more richer and fulfilling vocabulary than in Star Trek.
Not that I don't find the DVD movies method good but there is one big difficulty,finding the movie in my target language ,how will I do that?


I agree with you, but I think more people like films than books and audio books.

Anyway I think films are better method if you want to learn the real, street language with visual context.

And can be good method to learn languages. It reminds me that Ardaschir wrote about this:

Ardaschir wrote:

APosted By: Ardaschir
Date Posted: 10 April 2005 at 5:36pm

Souley has just confirmed what all of my Swedish friends and acquaintances have told me, namely that their English skills, which often truly rival those of native speakers, are not really due to formal education in it, but rather due to watching subtitled American television programs for several hours a day since their childhood. The same is certainly true for other Scandinavians, and I would bet for the Dutch as well. Subtitling rather than dubbing is obviously a proven route to effective second-language mastery. However, it unfortunately requires watching television, which is also proven to be mind-numbing.


Actually, watching films with subtitles in your own language is similar to listening audio books reading the translation in your own language (Listening-reading system step 3)

I think we can use both methods.




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