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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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leosmith
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4735 days ago

2365 posts - 3803 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Tagalog

 
 Message 377 of 489
27 November 2007 at 2:54am | IP Logged 
Zhuangzi wrote:
Soon after starting Russian I was listening quite intensively to a simple story that I know in English. I had the texts of both. I even had interspersed Russian and English texts (which I did not use very much.) I listened 30- 50 times and reread. This went on with a lot of intensity, not for days but for weeks. I still could not speak the language.

Valiant effort. I didn't spend nearly as much time as you, but I have to say that what I did seemed to prove that this method isn't going to work any miracles with my Japanese. Sure, listening and reading is always good. So I'm going to go back to reading 1hr per day, and listening to podcasts, because that seems to give me better results.
1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4888 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 378 of 489
27 November 2007 at 4:21am | IP Logged 
I did not expect listening to L2 while reading L1 to work miracles for my active skills. In the first place I expected to get a feeling for pronunciation and intonation, and if used in liaison with other methods it would also give me some of the benefits of extensive listening at a time where I wasn't really ready due to lack of vocabulary and knowledge about the grammar of the languages. And the use of interlaced bilinguals would help me to read extensively without having the skills that normally would be necessary. I would expect some benefit as to my active skills, but only in an indirect way: when you hear and read and read a lot of language in the extensive mode it will be easier to start thinking along (maybe even speaking aloud), but this preseupposes that you already know a fair amount of words and readymade 'chunks'. It doesn't come automatically just from listening or reading.

For me the LR-method is way of learning without the use of word lists and grammar books, but with a translation as a help to learning through passive absorption. However as I have written before I see active reading (with dictionaries and literal translation), word lists, studies of grammar and things like that as essential for my personal learning process, and I can't see myself using LR without these other elements. In fact I get the majority of my vocabulary from these sources, and then I learn through extensive reading and thinking/speaking how to use it in practice.

For those members, most notably Zhuangzi, who are sceptical about these old-style tools I fail to see how LR could add anything to their use of graded comprehensible texts, - except if there really is something like the 80 hour miracle, where the LR suddenly gives you the whole L2 language on a silver platter. In fact LR is just a kind of 'natural' learning where you use L1 to learn the L2 language, but you still expect to learn the L2 through inconscient absorption.

There is another aspect to this: the 'pure' LR method is supposed to work through massive injection of L2 in the form of genuine text or speech, and it is supposed to learn you the language through some kind of sudden epiphany after many hours of passive - though aided - absorption. This is just about the clearest case of confidence in global learning that I have ever heard about. I'm an extreme global learner myself, so maybe that's why I have a positive opinion about the central elements of LR, but I just don't think that it can stand alone. At least not for me, and certainly not without spending a lot of hours on the experiment.


Edited by Iversen on 28 November 2007 at 5:51am

1 person has voted this message useful



eulalia
Newbie
Spain
Joined 4484 days ago

1 posts - 7 votes
Speaks: Catalan*

 
 Message 379 of 489
27 November 2007 at 5:50am | IP Logged 
Although I have been a lurker since 2005, this is my first post. I've really enjoyed reading the forum during the past two years.

I agree with mjcdchess. I also could really care less about the lady's personality and I have not been offended by anything she posted, neither.

I believe it is unfair to ask her to demonstrate anything, or to request she learns Hungarian to prove it to us.

She made a contribution to the forum. She just shared her method for learning languages. One can take it or leave it. She is not selling anything, and I think it is unfair to ask her to prove anything. The method is almost free, if you want, try it yourself. She just shared it, why should she prove it against all criticisms?

She won’t be able to prove it anyway… What does it prove anyway a video in you tube? We have never seen her face, it could be another person, or she could just have learned some sentences…

It seems an absurd system to any of you? Ok, great, then why don't you just escape this thread?

I welcome Siomotteikuru. I think it is absurd to ban the person whose contributions have been most debated over in the history of the forum.



Edited by eulalia on 27 November 2007 at 6:06am

7 persons have voted this message useful



MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
Joined 4632 days ago

208 posts - 345 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Thai, Polish

 
 Message 380 of 489
27 November 2007 at 6:37am | IP Logged 
And here's my sign to the post above. I agree completely. Though I know that someone WAS offended by certain remarks on someone's Russian pronunciation. I admit that I sympathised with Zhuangzi, and felt uncomfortable to hear something like that on this Forum. But, she is right that we are not children anymore. Those remarks are NOT offensive (although they DO hurt vanity), but an honest opinion. What is more, siomotteikiru was more civil than majority never to comment on what she never had any experiences at all and never intended to have any, until she was furnished proofs. And she never, never asked someone to PROVE something.

Personally, I liked what she was saying. But I maybe haven't read everything she wrote (low possibility). In my eyes, she is a great person because she is not money-oriented and helps people willingly, me included, asking nothing for exchange.


Edited by MarcoDiAngelo on 27 November 2007 at 6:39am

4 persons have voted this message useful



Sprachprofi
Nonaglot
Senior Member
Germany
learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4655 days ago

2608 posts - 4866 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian
Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese

 
 Message 381 of 489
27 November 2007 at 7:00am | IP Logged 
I also don't think that people should be offended by an honest evaluation of their skills in a language - a lot even ask for that. However, there's a respectful way of saying it and I don't believe in providing such feedback at all if it isn't requested / the discussion doesn't touch upon it. That would seem like I'd want to intentionally put somebody down, when more likely than not he's already aware of his talents and his shortcomings.

I believe some of you are unaware of the more objectionable comments she made, the ones that were quickly deleted as soon as a moderator saw them. For example, she expressed her wish that a valued forum member's kids should die. This kind of comment is just plain unacceptable and her valuable contributions can't change the fact that she's mentally too immature or unstable to be participating here. To see some of the really objectionable comments that were deleted, read the thread in the senior members sub-forum.
1 person has voted this message useful



MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
Joined 4632 days ago

208 posts - 345 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Thai, Polish

 
 Message 382 of 489
27 November 2007 at 7:13am | IP Logged 
If that is true, I stand rebuked.
1 person has voted this message useful



Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5213 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 383 of 489
27 November 2007 at 8:22am | IP Logged 
If the reference to people being offended by Sim. is to me, let me be very clear. I was in no way offended. However, to call a person's pronunciation a "disaster" is not only not useful, it is not credible, and therefore reflects more about the person using the term than the person being described as such.I have a very good idea of the state of my Russian pronunciation.

The point about Sim. is that she has interesting things to say, and proposed a method that has appealed to some people. I have tried it and found it not as helpful in vocabulary accumulation as other activities, and not as enjoyable as staying totally in the target language. I have no doubt that others enjoy the approach.

The problem with Sim. is that she deliberately goes about being annoying, which , as I have said, are not grounds for banning her. It is just that these antics detract from her credibility.
1 person has voted this message useful



atamagaii
Senior Member
Anguilla
Joined 4391 days ago

181 posts - 195 votes 
Speaks: Apache*

 
 Message 384 of 489
28 November 2007 at 12:42am | IP Logged 
Sprachprofi wrote:
she expressed her wish that a valued forum member's kids should die





Death being a serious and scary matter for some, this time I will disappoint you and I will hold my tongue, and won’t answer back with my usual unusual wiTtTt.
I'm sure they are as fresh as a daisy and won't be pushing them up for a long time.
If I took trifles such as death seriously, I'd have been dead before I was born.

As far as I remember I wrote something like this:
"I hope his children (won’t or perhaps will) die of hunger". I am not sure, though what I really wrote and when, I do not remember the context. It must have been intended as a joke. Knowing myself as I do, in the conext it must have been quite appropriate and – to some extent – witty, not my best, I must admit. I would only wish Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot to die, but not their children.

As I already said, uploading anything by myself on YouTube would be pointless as I might cheat (I am quite good at it actually). Another reason is that I'd rather stay "quietly anonymous" for most of you. I am not a commercially or religiously or politically oriented person and I do not need advertising or your votes or money. Neither do I need followers. Everyone should think for themsef. Free people do not need a strong man to guide them.
Having said that, I am really curious how Listening-Reading would work with Hungarian. I like the language, I mean the music of it. Anyone really willing to prepare parallel Hungarian-Polish (or Russian, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese) texts is welcome.
Listening-Reading not based on your mother tongue would be slower, that's obvious. One skill that is required here is to be able to read and understand the text instantly and remember it verbatim for some time, and it is not so easy in a language that is not your own.
Though I did learn English using Russian mostly (not my mother tongue). I have already used many other languages to learn Japanese so far, too. I am really interested in Japanese and Japanese literature and movies, and (for the first time in my life), I would like to learn the language as well as possible. I've always treated languages as a vehicle for something else, Japanese is an exception, I do love the language. Just looking at kanji makes me smile and happy.

I am not against other people learning in their own way. If someone finds L-R worthless or stupid or not effective or impossible, don't do it.
I am not against grammar, either, or graded readers, I must have been misunderstood. The way grammar is usually taught is rather boring. Graded readers are usually mindless. And I can't stand boredom. Life is too short for that.

As to hurting other people's feelings: I do not think anybody needs my respect to respect herself/himself.


As to my sex and age:
'Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.'
Or I'm Socrates's daughter and Bertrand Russell's son.
男でもあり、女でもある。

As to breaking the rules:
There's only one rule not to break.
The rule is: "There are no rule(r)s".
Or to put it in a more poetic way:
"Pomóż, wspomóż, dopomóż wyjątku czuły odeprzeć tłume armie: reguły."
or
The rule is: Jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but never jam today.



To end in a more positive way:
If anyone is really interested in trying L-R or finds it useful for them, or preparing (and sharing) materials, please pm Volte, s/he will give you my e-mail.
I promise I will answer, but do not expect political correctness from me. You can write anything you want in any way you want, too. I won't feel offended. Be straight to the point (and brief, if possible), I do not read verbose letters.

Listening-Reading in a teeny weeny nutshell:
LOVE + Listening-Reading (and then natural listening) + pronunciation = speaking + writing.
Use LONG novels right from the start. If the languages are different the first three hours should be translated word for word. If they are similar, it is not necessary.
There's nothing miraculous about it.

To the Admin:
As this thread seems to be leading nowhere, wouldn't it be wise to close it once and for good?
Not to cause more trouble, I will refrain from posting and just stay a lurker as long as Volte or sheetz post anything.

Be happy, all of you, and smile at yourself first thing in the morning.

Fare thee well!
www.stultorum.pochta.ru\nihongo\amenimomakezu.mp3

My last post is here:

Edited by atamagaii on 18 December 2007 at 6:07am



1 person has voted this message useful



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