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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4470 days ago

102 posts - 241 votes 

 
 Message 57 of 489
11 July 2007 at 5:03am | IP Logged 
"Le petit prince" is not enough, it is far too short.

What you should do in STEP 3 is
not just look at the translation but READ it before the matching texts in the recording reaches your brain, and try to simultaneously attach the meaning to what you're hearing, at least part of it, without stopping the tape(=audiofile) all the time. If you're not able to do it, you must repeat Step 2.

And it would be wonderful if you knew why the idiolect of the author is so important and why the texts sould be long.

And do not forget to be passionately in love with what you're listening-reading.

The whole process is far from mechanical, it is not school. You have to use all your imagination and power of concentration.

Edited by siomotteikiru on 11 July 2007 at 5:11am

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JasonChoi
Diglot
Senior Member
Korea, South
Joined 4468 days ago

274 posts - 298 votes 
Speaks: English*, Korean
Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Latin

 
 Message 58 of 489
11 July 2007 at 5:24am | IP Logged 
Ortho wrote:
Hmm. That's what I initially thought as well, though after working with it for a couple of hours this morning I am starting to feel that might actually be important to ignore the French text and just make the connection between the heard French words and the concepts that I already have in English.


In the field of linguistics, this is called Comprehensible Input :)

The English gives you the meaning, while the French gives you the sounds of the language. It's a very different approach from the way languages are taught in class.

Quote:
While I find myself unable to mentally repeat big sections of the spoken French,


I don't think you should be speaking French so early at this point.

Quote:
I do find that through the text I am having a lot of moments of recognition where I have seen and noticed a word a second time and am developing an explicit idea of what it means, almost as if it were an immersion situation (which I guess it sort of is). I didn't seem to have those moments of recognition yesterday when I was looking at both sets of text:


I think this is due to the fact that you've gone through the text several times (almost like watching through a grocery store several times to get a better idea of what goods are in whatever aisle).

Quote:
the fact that I was sort of automatically semi-translating every word seemed to stop that from happening, almost as if there wasn't enough empty space for me to recognize things for myself?


If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems like you're trying to grasp every single word all at the same time. I think a better approach is to first get the big picture and then zoom in on the details afterwards. Stuart Ray Jay mentioned in his youtube interview that he focused on meaning, not individual words. It's like looking at a puzzle box before you begin to put the puzzle together: it's much easier if you get the big picture first. I think the same is true with language learning. This would explain why comprehensible input is so important. We wouldn't be lost like many students in foreign language classes. ;)

As siomotteikiru mentioned, 'it is not school', which to me means we shouldn't be doing grammar drills or attempting to figure out all specific words or details of the language. The focus should be on meaningful content which is enjoyable.

Edited by JasonChoi on 11 July 2007 at 5:27am

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furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4495 days ago

540 posts - 631 votes 
Speaks: Latin*

 
 Message 59 of 489
11 July 2007 at 6:06am | IP Logged 
Let me start by stating that I do believe this to be a valid method in general: various elements of it have formed part of talented language students' study routine since time immemorial...

Yet Japanese presents a very unique set of challenges. I truly believe that starting to learn it properly one must spend a considerable amount of time learning ABOUT it, unless one is lucky to have a very good Teacher (not in the classroom sense)...

siomotteikiru wrote:

You can make sense of an average newspaper article not in week but straight away:


Can't access this from where I am now, will comment once I've had a chance to have a look. However, 'making sense' meant picking up a random newspaper, not a prepared text.


siomotteikiru wrote:

There may be “tons of e-texts available in Japanese”, and in fact I have THOUSANDS myslf, so what? Are they parallel? What about the audio? Where is it? What about the translation?


Translations are a-plenty. Since you read Russian, you are no doubt aware that virtually every single Russian book, including the numerous translations of the Japanese literature, has been scanned and placed on the web.

As for the audio, sites like www.nhk.co.jp have not many hours but many YEARS of FULLY TRANSCRIBED audio news broadcasts. And you will find that on-line dictionaries are great help for obtaining a translation.


siomotteikiru wrote:
When you say “most optimistic of those still take out 1-2 years” it means nothing to me. What kind of exposure is it?

EXPOSURE: {new text (audio+written, see above)} divided by {minute times hours times days}
Hours and days should be counted from the first moment you start learning, sleep and anything else INCLUDED.
The text can be measured in pages or words or minutes (silence and music excluded).

Only if EXPOSURE is known, any meaningful discussion makes sense.

You can get to the stage of “natural listening” just in a week, and to be able to speak using two to three thousand words and simple sentences.


Let's take an average unabridged novel, e.g., Mishima's 'Haru no yuki' and assume one has access to an excellent translation and a full audio recording. Starting from absolute scratch, what amount of staring at this text - without word breaks!!! - and listening to the audio will get one the command of 2-3 thousand words and the ability to USE them in sentences of one's own?!

Is it possible to learn 3,000 words in a week? Undoubtedly. Although in the case of Japanese, without any prior exposure to characters, I would think that it would have to be limited to spoken forms of these words only.

Is it possible to learn some grammar patterns to go the words? I'm sure it is.

But none of the above two tasks are easily accomplished: a more-than-averagely talented learner would require LOTS of exposure during that week to achieve the above, even assuming he starts off with perfectly prepared word lists and easily digestible grammar patterns.

Yet distilling 3,000 words AND the grammar from an unabridged kanji text (i.e., with, let's face it, quite random spelling and without any word breaks) within a week of one's first exposure to the language would require a truly exceptional talent and motivation. You have reasons to be proud of yourself if you're fall into that category.

Now, the above tasks are quite formidable by themselves. As for speaking, the Japanese twist of mind is more than 'slight': confidently forming sentences of one's own requires one to forget all of one's 'natural' instincts derived from European languages. And even at that, the language is not reproductive in the usual way: if one is not exactly sure HOW to say any particular thing in Japanese, no amount of grammar pattern and vocabulary knowledge will help one to form a correct sentence.

So is ALL of the above theoretically possible? I'm sure it is - since the human mind of capable of most extraordinary feats. I am yet to see anyone achieve it, though.



siomotteikiru wrote:
As to the writing and reading it might take a little bit longer, three to five hundred hours of “listening-reading” should be enough. And you most certainly shouldn’t drill kanji using flashcards or Heisig methods. A simple introduction, say the book by Len Walsh, is enough to get an idea what kanji are, the rest is done by “listening-reading.”


Ah, so that's about 3 months of 12 hour per day exposure. Very different from 'a week', thank you very much.

I'm not a big fan of Heisig myself but he's done a great job for suggesting a system. Are you suggesting to forget all about any systems?.. It would be interesting to compare the efficiency of the two approaches...



Edited by furyou_gaijin on 11 July 2007 at 6:11am

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MarcoDiAngelo
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
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208 posts - 345 votes 
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 Message 60 of 489
11 July 2007 at 6:33am | IP Logged 
To siomotteikiru: Please answer if one can benefit from movies somehow?

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Ortho
Groupie
United Kingdom
Joined 4459 days ago

58 posts - 60 votes 

 
 Message 61 of 489
11 July 2007 at 6:57am | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
"Le petit prince" is not enough, it is far too short.


I agree, but I am not sure where you are finding all these unabridged audio-by-native-speaker versions of all your most beloved literature. I have enjoyed a lot of French literature translated into English (Proust, large chunks of Balzac, Stendahl, Camus, Kundera), but am not really finding sources for unabridged audio readings of these things in English. Anything you might know about sourcing would be helpful.

Quote:
What you should do in STEP 3 is
not just look at the translation but READ it before the matching texts in the recording reaches your brain, and try to simultaneously attach the meaning to what you're hearing, at least part of it, without stopping the tape(=audiofile) all the time. If you're not able to do it, you must repeat Step 2.


Thanks. I get it now.

Quote:
And do not forget to be passionately in love with what you're listening-reading.


Again, the issue is not (for me at least), not loving works of literature, it's finding unabridged audio of them in French.


Edited by Ortho on 11 July 2007 at 7:37am

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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4470 days ago

102 posts - 241 votes 

 
 Message 62 of 489
11 July 2007 at 8:25am | IP Logged 
Sorry once more. I have no time to even properly read your comments, let alone think them over and answer them.

I've already said all that really matters, the rest is left to your own judgement and experimentation.

I can share my resources on a one-to-one basis.

The greatest source of audiobooks are libraries for visually handicapped people and p2p.


To MarcoDiAngelo

I am a great admirer of Japanese cinema, but movies are no good for listening-reading, too poor exposure.
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Farley
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
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681 posts - 738 votes 
1 sounds
Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 63 of 489
11 July 2007 at 8:25am | IP Logged 
Ortho wrote:
Again, the issue is not (for me at least), not loving works of literature, it's finding unabridged audio of them in French.


Really there are not that many but there are a number of courses out there that follow a similar methodology. Assimil comes to mind first. French in Action can easily be adapted to this method using the videos substitute for the dual text. There are a number of other web sites that have similar offerings, many of them for free.

John
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furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4495 days ago

540 posts - 631 votes 
Speaks: Latin*

 
 Message 64 of 489
11 July 2007 at 11:25am | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
Sorry once more. I have no time to even properly read your comments, let alone think them over and answer them.

I've already said all that really matters, the rest is left to your own judgement and experimentation.


Excellent! And I shall make a mental note to refrain from constructive criticism in the future so we can all continue as one happy family in a self-congratulatory mood! :-)))


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