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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
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102 posts - 242 votes 

 
 Message 65 of 489
11 July 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged 
to furyou_gaijin

I do not say you're an undesirable alien, on the contrary, you're welcome.
By the way: Lingua Latina malum necessarium est. Stultorum infinitus est numerus.

I do not mind your comments, I like them very much. They make you think, and I'm not alien to thinking.

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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5106 days ago

2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 66 of 489
11 July 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged 
Volte wrote:
I've taken two month-long intensive courses, and can manage some basics in German, but I'm short of conversational. I can read newspaper articles for content, missing some details, but literature is currently far beyond me. If this method lets me read literature meaningfully, I'll be extremely pleased with it.


Despite having bought some bilingual editions, I haven't been able to get myself to use them with any of my "official" languages. Something in me just rebels at having a bilingual instead of a more or less monolingual experience, to the point where I am willing to spend more time learning the language.


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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
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 Message 67 of 489
12 July 2007 at 6:59am | IP Logged 
The one thing I have learnt from this thread is that the best layout for translations is

form 1:
original original original
translation translation translation

original original original
translation translation translation


and not

form 2:
original original     translation translation
original original     translation translation
original original     translation translation


and certainly not form 3:

original original original original original original original original original original original

translation translation translation translation translation translation translation translation


(whatever the choice of form the translations should be as literal as possible, even if it means they don't conform with the normal rules of the translation language - you are supposed to know those beforehand!).

With the translation underneath the original I can skim a lot of original text which otherwise would be too difficult, and provided I know the basics of the language I can also on the fly identify which elements in the translation corresponds to which elements in the original. With the translation in a separate column I have to shift my attention from side to side, and that breaks my reading rythm. If I were trying to follow an audio version then reading both languages simultaneously in form 1 (like piano music) might be feasible, while it would be utterly impossible with the other two forms.

Unfortunately you normally won't get form 1), at most form 2) if you are lucky. With form 1 you can do extensive reading almost at normal reading speed (or while listening to the audio version). For intensive study I would still prefer to do my own translations, and the third part translation would then only serve as a control. But intensive study will never give the fluency that comes with extensive reading or listening to vast amounts of genuine material, and form 1) is certainly an effective way of getting to that stage faster.

For the moment I'm trying to figure out how to convert large amounts of text + translation from form 3 to form 1.


Edited by Iversen on 12 July 2007 at 7:29am

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siomotteikiru
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Zaire
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 Message 68 of 489
12 July 2007 at 8:45am | IP Logged 
The layout of the e-texts is important. If you have downloaded the sample I uploaded a while ago (if you haven't, the link is somewhere in the thread), you may see the different variations.

For beginners the ideal one is interlinear - the original above, the word-for-word translation below, but it is extremely time consuming to prepare such texts.


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JasonChoi
Diglot
Senior Member
Korea, South
Joined 4522 days ago

274 posts - 298 votes 
Speaks: English*, Korean
Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Latin

 
 Message 69 of 489
12 July 2007 at 9:07am | IP Logged 
The interlinear translation is mentioned in the Birkenbihl method, but the problem I see, as siomotteikiru mentioned, is that it is really time consuming.

parallel texts aren't too bad as long as they're literally next to each other. Heinrich Schliemann used a similar approach to learn ancient Greek, though he didn't have audio.
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siomotteikiru
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 Message 70 of 489
12 July 2007 at 9:16am | IP Logged 
The interlenear texts are konwn from time immemorial, I've seen some from the seventeenth century.

There are some available now, too. The Hebrew Bible, The New Testament.

I've made some myslef for Polsh learners of English and German.

Edited by siomotteikiru on 12 July 2007 at 9:28am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4866 days ago

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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 71 of 489
12 July 2007 at 9:49am | IP Logged 
I think that I have found a way to do it. The person who does it has to know at last how to subdivide a text in the foreign language, and the translation have to be fairly literal (though it may be difficult to find sufficiently literal translations).

Open the two versions in your favorite word processor, in two separate windows one above the other. The first trick is to make sure that one sentence in one language corresponds to exactly one sentence in the other. If the sentences are too long then cut them into pieces, but try to keep the corresponding contents in the same 'pair'. Otherwise brutally move the content in the translation (maybe add a comment) - the important thing is to couple some content in the original with the same content in the translation, and if you have to murder the translation to do that, then please do so.

Then do some search-and-replace to put each sentence on its own line. A point plus an space will of course indicate a new line, but there are also points after abbreviations and numbers, and there is no simple way to solve that problem. You have to manually recombine the sentences that have been cut into too many pieces.

Now move the two versions to column C and F in a spreadsheet, put numbers 1,2... in column A and D, fill out columns B and E with "a" resp. "b". After that move the content of columns D-F down below the content of column A-C, and sort the whole thing on a key consisting of column A+B. And move the whole lot back into your favorite word processor. That's all there is to it.


Edited by Iversen on 12 July 2007 at 9:57am

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alexptrans
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Israel
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Speaks: English, Modern Hebrew, Russian*, French, Arabic (Written)
Studies: Icelandic

 
 Message 72 of 489
12 July 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged 
Do you think this method will work with a collection of short stories? Say, 10 hours of recordings?


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