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luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4585 days ago

3138 posts - 1257 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

 
 Message 225 of 245
30 March 2012 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
Gatsby42 wrote:
What makes you think that Google Translate can be even remotely trusted in transcribing entire books?


It depends on your level and what you are looking for from a translation. For me, as support for an audiobook of which I have incomplete comprehension, it is very helpful. E.G., if I'm good with most prepositions and the filler words that permeate the language, but I don't know some specific words, it improves comprehensible input.

Google translate is far from perfect, but I find it to be a helpful tool.

In the example above for stories by The Brothers Grimm, it is great for words like specific types of trees, flowers, and especially words that were perhaps common at the time the stories were written, but that are rarer in modern adult literature.

So, I don't use Google translate like a dictionary per se, but rather as comprehension support for audio and ebooks.



Gatsby42
Groupie
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2021 days ago

55 posts - 17 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 226 of 245
31 March 2012 at 6:08pm | IP Logged 
Carlo- I'm not sure how you'd define "new" to the language. I'm around an A1 level,
which makes most of what I've tried to read for L-R totally incomprehensible. I
thought that was the point of L-R, to help you learn material too advanced for you
traditionally.

Either way, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to use them.

Luke- Alright. I was just thrown off when you were talking about Google Translate like
you could start an audiobook and have GT literally translate entire chapters word for
word. It sounded crazy since most good translations are done in a caring and meticulous
fashion over the years by someone who has advanced fluency in both languages.

Either way, thanks again for the links and advice. Thanks to you, I stumbled upon some
Oscar Wilde works that I plan on pouring through. Don't really have any familiarity
with them, but they seem to be mercifully simple.



carlonove
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3366 days ago

145 posts - 108 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 227 of 245
01 April 2012 at 7:27pm | IP Logged 
Gatsby42 wrote:
Carlo- I'm not sure how you'd define "new" to the language. I'm around an A1 level,
which makes most of what I've tried to read for L-R totally incomprehensible. I
thought that was the point of L-R, to help you learn material too advanced for you
traditionally.


I tend to use LR-related techniques only when I've reached an intermediate level of a language, as I find it too
frustrating as a beginner (more or less the "totally incomprehensible" stage you described). Because of the
relative closeness of Spanish of English, this may not pose as much of a problem for you.

You may not be able to do "pure" LR with Spoken Wiki articles since there is no corresponding translation, but if
you read the article with the assistance of Franker and then copy/paste the "frankated" text into a document file,
you've got a custom-glossed version of the article that should help you make more sense of the recorded
version. If you're unfamiliar with Franker you should take a look here:

Franker Browser Extension
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 3977 days ago

9756 posts - 6179 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 228 of 245
01 April 2012 at 9:14pm | IP Logged 
Hm, Italian and Spanish are about equally close to English. It's just that in the US you get a lot of exposure to Spanish.

Afaiu, a requirement of doing LR (with L1 text and L2 audio) is that a sentence in the target language is no longer a string of incomprehensible noise for you: ideally, you should be able to tell where one word ends and the other starts, even if you don't know the meaning. Though for me LR is also a good way to get to this stage.


Edited by Serpent on 01 April 2012 at 9:15pm



carlonove
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3366 days ago

145 posts - 108 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 229 of 245
01 April 2012 at 10:02pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Hm, Italian and Spanish are about equally close to English. It's just
that in the US you get a lot of exposure to Spanish.

Afaiu, a requirement of doing LR (with L1 text and L2 audio) is that a sentence in the
target language is no longer a string of incomprehensible noise for you: ideally, you
should be able to tell where one word ends and the other starts, even if you don't know
the meaning. Though for me LR is also a good way to get to this stage.


I agree that Italian and Spanish are relatively equal in difficulty to English, but I
wasn't referring to Italian in my comment. I've LR'd with languages outside the romance
family, and consistently found that it's too frustrating when you have little or no
grasp of the grammar. I was in fact much more successful with Italian, which I studied
in school for several years.

If I recall correctly Siomotteikiru did do some "traditional" grammar study prior to
his LR marathons, although I don't know where it's mentioned in the massive original
thread. Also, nobody's been able to replicate his level of success, or as far as I know
even been able to maintain the same intensive study schedule he describes, so people
should realistically not expect to reach the basic reading and listening fluency he
mentions in such short a period of time. And if someone could reach that kind of basic
fluency so quickly, I suspect they could do it with methods other than LR as well.



Gatsby42
Groupie
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2021 days ago

55 posts - 17 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 230 of 245
02 April 2012 at 10:48am | IP Logged 
Thanks again for the links and advice Carlo.

As for debate about L-R, I'm still willing to try it. I never really bought into the
idea that attaining fluency would ever be the kind of easy task I could do in an entire
year.

Spanish is weird. It's close to English in grammar, but very alien in other ways. With
me, the trouble in L-R isn't so much that I can't understand anything, but more that
it's hard to keep up. If you stop to actually think for a second you risk getting three
sentences behind and losing an entire paragraph before you find your place.

I'm gonna keep up with it and see what happens. I figure that if I can't start making
sense out of the current short story I'm L-Ring within another three to four goes, I
just may find something else to pour my energy into.



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 3819 days ago

4475 posts - 2382 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 231 of 245
03 April 2012 at 4:36pm | IP Logged 
Gatsby42 wrote:
Thanks again for the links and advice Carlo.

As for debate about L-R, I'm still willing to try it. I never really bought into the
idea that attaining fluency would ever be the kind of easy task I could do in an entire
year.


Of course one can attain 'fluency' (as it tends to be defined on this forum) in a year: people routinely do so, if they're studying fairly intensively. Whether it's people at the DLI, missionaries, or European students on exchange programs, this is not a rarity.

One doesn't hit this level in a year by spending 15 minutes a day or an hour a week on a language, of course.

Gatsby42 wrote:

Spanish is weird. It's close to English in grammar, but very alien in other ways. With
me, the trouble in L-R isn't so much that I can't understand anything, but more that
it's hard to keep up. If you stop to actually think for a second you risk getting three
sentences behind and losing an entire paragraph before you find your place.

I'm gonna keep up with it and see what happens. I figure that if I can't start making
sense out of the current short story I'm L-Ring within another three to four goes, I
just may find something else to pour my energy into.


It's a short story. That's not how LR works: you need a longer text. Repeating the same short one at your level isn't very effective. There was a thread a few years ago where the lingq guy tried repeating a short story 72 times or so, with dismal results... it's just not enough material.



Gatsby42
Groupie
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2021 days ago

55 posts - 17 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 232 of 245
03 April 2012 at 9:51pm | IP Logged 
Well, then I'm at a loss really. The only text I've been able to find so far that matches
it's audiobook is Harry Potter and I heard bad things about the translation and it's
reliability as a text for learning.

Guess I'll just have to suck it up and hope the comments about it's translation were
exaggerated.

Edited by Gatsby42 on 03 April 2012 at 9:51pm




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