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Mandarin Chinese really so hard? | ||
Tags: Difficulty | Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| epingchris Triglot Senior Member Taiwan shih-chuan.blog.ntu. Joined 6808 days ago 273 posts - 284 votes  5 sounds Studies: Taiwanese, Mandarin*, English, FrenchB2 Studies: Japanese, German, Turkish | Message 25 of 36 10 November 2007 at 9:05am | IP Logged | ||
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I actually think Chinese's grammar is a lot harder than it looks like. Most other languages have "complex" rules, but they're pretty consistent. The so-called "exceptions" are that you have to use a different spelling here or there, different ending here or there - while Chinese have practically no rules and proper usage is usually based on norms "It doesn't feel right." "It's correct but we wouldn't say that." is common when we try to explain the grammar. Consider the following example of forming "S + to be + adj.":
I am smart: 我 是 聰明 的 (wo shi tsong ming de)x 我 很 聰明 (wo hen tsong ming)o It is without doubt 這 是 無庸置疑 的 (zhe shi wu yong zhih yi de)o 這 很 無庸置疑 (zhe hen wu yong zhih yi)x It is surprising: 這 是 令人驚奇 的 (zhe shi ling ren jing qi de)o 這 很 令人驚奇 (zhe hen ling ren jing qi)o (though their usage differs somewhat) It's hard to explain unless you go to linguistic analysis in depth, I guess. Anyway good luck on everyone trying to learn the language and don't let anything discourage you! I have to remind myself that the article is not badly-intentioned when I read it, though. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6482 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 26 of 36 10 November 2007 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | ||
The thing is, despite having a lot of complex rules for a lot of situations, English in the end usually winds up based on "It doesn't feel right." I imagine most languages do, because that's the nature of languages, and why it's so difficult to get to the level of a native speaker in any language. Chinese just dispenses with the complex grammar and goes right for the vague, subtle inconsistent law of "feel." 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| apparition Octoglot Senior Member United States Joined 6430 days ago 600 posts - 667 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Pashto | Message 27 of 36 10 November 2007 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think Chinese grammar is definitely different than, say Indo-European languages, but once you understand the differences (like 'is' doesn't necessarily need 'shi', but it may, etc.) then it's not too difficult. Getting to that point of understanding so you can use those grammatical constructions without effort is the trick. Keep in mind my comparison isn't even with English as learner, it's with Icelandic, which is worlds more difficult (but still do-able) to me right now. We'll see how it goes in the future. :) Edited by apparition on 10 November 2007 at 8:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6306 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 28 of 36 30 July 2008 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am trying to put a number on the number of hours needed for "basic fluency" in coversational chinese.
Last year I studied Persian and Indonesian for about one hour every day. The only materials I used where recorded dialogs, namely the linguaphone Malay and Indonesian courses, TY Malay, the assimil Persian course and Persian DLI materials. For Persian I also frequently had oportunities to speak with natives. I primarily used the Professors shadowing method, learning the dailogs practically by heart. I ignored the written language, and anything not in a conversational register, although I copy out the texts of the dialogs in the courses I studied. I also had some previous knowledge of Arabic, with a vocabulary of perhaps 2500 words. I had 40 hours of one on one tutoring in Indonesia at the end of the year, over a ten day period, which is the first time I really used the language. At this point my progress in the languages was about the same. I had a vocabulary of about 2500-3000 words in each language, spoke correctly with good accent, sometimes a bit haltingly or searching for a word, and could handle conversation on most topics, given the person used fairly "standard" language (not too colloquial) I found I could comprehend well even fairly fast speech, and could read newspapers and light reading with a dictionary. I suppose this corresponds to an ILR rating of about 2/2+. Including conversational practice, I spent perhaps 350 hours on Malay/Indonesian and 400 hours on Farsi. The FSI says it takes 900 hours to get to a "minimum working proficiency" in Indonesian, and 1100 in Farsi. Not to say I reached this level, but taking the ratio of the hours I spent vs. the FSI number of hours: Indonesian: 900/350 = 2.57 Persian: 1100/400 = 2.75 Taking the average of this ratio: (2.57 + 2.75)/2 = 2.66 Given that the FSI says it takes 2200 hours to reach ILR 3, and I'll allow a 20% discount for ignoring the written language, 1760 hours, following this logic, I can reach the same level, 2/2+, in approx. 1760/2.66 = 662 hours, or roughly one year giving it two hours a day. Does this sound about right to you Mandarin learners? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6306 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 29 of 36 30 July 2008 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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Indonesian is also a very "gramatically simple" language, according to Barry Farber, but I found despite lacking inflection and conjugations, the logic, patterns and constructions of the languge are not very familiar, and there is a good deal to be assimilated in order to express yourself naturally. This kind of grammer is perhaps more difficult to catergorize and interlectulise than verb endings, which can be neatly listed in a table. Personally, I found Persian to be more straightforward.
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| sajro Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5776 days ago 129 posts - 131 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 30 of 36 30 July 2008 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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"The tone of this document..."
Pun intended? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Deecab Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5741 days ago 106 posts - 108 votes Speaks: English, Korean* Studies: Mandarin | Message 31 of 36 02 August 2008 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've only started Mandarin maybe couple of weeks ago, and the tone factor so far wasn't as hard as people throughout the past have made it out to be. Sure my first real language was Korean so I may have a bit of advantage in learning Mandarin but tonal factor is just as foreign to me as an average Westerner.
Pronunciation minus the tone is manageable too. It's easier than lot of other languages like English, French, Polish or Malaylam. The real difficulty is the writing/reading which takes quite some time to be fluent. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| neil-flynn Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5741 days ago 116 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* Studies: SpanishB2, Mandarin | Message 32 of 36 02 August 2008 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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i started learning mandarin about 2 weeks ago, studying 1-2 hours a day and im not finding it particularly challenging so far. The tones are easy if you keep practicing.
Obviously, i expect it to get harder as i progress, but it doesn't seem as hard as people say that it is. Many people say that its impossible to be fluent in Mandarin if you aren't native, but as with any language, i think that fluency can be attained through lots of practice, years of dedication, and interaction with native speakers. I don't think that any language is impossible to learn. Part of the attraction of learning mandarin is that people have the preconception that it is so difficult. I think that if i don't go to live/work in China, i probably won't ever be perfectly fluent in Mandarin, but i aim to go as far as i can with it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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