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Most inefficient languages? | ||
Tags: Difficulty | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| justinwilliams Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6471 days ago 321 posts - 327 votes  3 sounds Speaks: French*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Italian | Message 33 of 69 19 September 2007 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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... Edited by justinwilliams on 19 September 2007 at 8:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6141 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English* | Message 34 of 69 19 September 2007 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | ||
"Left-biased"? Do you really think this is about politics? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| justinwilliams Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6471 days ago 321 posts - 327 votes 3 sounds Speaks: French*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Italian | Message 35 of 69 19 September 2007 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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... Edited by justinwilliams on 19 September 2007 at 8:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6938 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 36 of 69 19 September 2007 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | ||
I can see why people find the thread infuriating since it implies that those who speak "complicated" languages as native ones must be somehow inferior since they haven't "seen the light" and simplified their languages. The problem with your thinking is that it's relative and it's very hard to say that X is simpler than Y in absolute terms. You could only say this in relative terms (e.g. English is generally easier for a monolingual German to learn compared to a monolingual Korean). As linguamor posted, why doesn't English drop articles, the distinction between "he" and "she" or the distinction between present and past tense? How would you as a native speaker of English react to those ideas if they were put forth by an ESL student? About evolution of language towards "simplicity", it's debatable. As an example, let's take Bulgarian. It's Slavonic, however unlike almost all other Slavonic languages, it has almost totally lost the pattern of declension (7 cases, 3 genders and 3 numbers) that was used in Old Church Slavonic and still used to a large degree in almost all of the other Slavonic languages. (It's similar to how modern English has shed almost the entire pattern of declensions that was used in Old English and still used more or less in German). Right away, you would say that modern Bulgarian is simpler, right? On the other hand, modern Bulgarian has for whatever reason a much more elaborate system of verb conjugation (i.e. more tenses and moods) than other Slavonic languages and Old Church Slavonic. Would you now say that modern Bulgarian is still easier than Old Bulgarian? In some ways, I can see your point in that certain distinctions made in the older version of the language are no longer made, and in a limited sense the modern language is arguably simpler than the old language. Yet when it comes to implying that the modern version is somehow superior to the older version, that's where things get dicey, to say the least. As you can see with Bulgarian, I'm not sure how Bulgarians would react if you would tell them that their language is now simpler because it has virtually no declension. What about the other features of Bulgarian? Does the modern language make distinctions that the old one didn't? Edited by Chung on 19 September 2007 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| joan.carles Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6115 days ago 332 posts - 342 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*, French, EnglishC1, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Hungarian, Russian, Georgian | Message 37 of 69 19 September 2007 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | ||
You're right, we use genders, but they are not the same across the different romance languages. But again, like I say, languages were not intended for foreign learners, so maybe you find it complicated to have genders in these languages. Natives don't, for me it's clear that milk is feminine and for a French it's clear that it's masculine. If this was that difficult to comprehend, we would find people saying "el leche", others "la lait" on weekdays and the other way round on the weekends, for example. Instead, once acquired we use it with sufficient consistency so that to consider that that's not that difficult and obscure. Also, if this was that hard, after so many centuries there wouldn't be any language that use genders, or it's just that we are stupid and want to keep things so that to make communication difficult? Really, I can't understand this obsession for creating hierarchies to demonstrate what language is better and what is worse. What can this prove? mm, well, yes, it could prove something. Why don't you guys that think about inefficient and efficient languages create a list of those considered inefficent, a ranking. Then according to this ranking, you can visit the countries where they are spoken or take a couple of specimens that speak these languages and check that effectively, as you thought, they can't communicate between each other. That would be a good way to justificate the usefulness of the dozens of posts about superior and inferior languages. Good luck in your investigations! Edit. Good example, Chung, thanks! Edited by joan.carles on 19 September 2007 at 5:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lloydkirk Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6195 days ago 429 posts - 452 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Russian | Message 38 of 69 19 September 2007 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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A mod can go ahead and close this thread. Hardly anyone is contributing, mainly just a lot of impolite and uncivilized criticism. I don't have the time to argue with fundamentalist linguists. Many of you chaps take yourself far too seriously...
Best of luck in your endeavors 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6938 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 39 of 69 19 September 2007 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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C'mon lloydkirk, show some spirit! I don't know about the others, but I'm more than happy to shoot the breeze with you.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6141 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English* | Message 40 of 69 19 September 2007 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | ||
Exactly. If the natives have no trouble with speaking their language, how can I judge it inefficient with my non-native knowledge of the language? The burden of learning is not on those who have already learned the language to make it easier for those who haven't, but on those who haven't to learn it if they wish to communicate with those who have. To put it simply, a piano is not an impossible instrument simply because you have not learned to play it. A natural language spoken by human beings is everything it needs to be for those who speak it; if you want to make use of it, you will need to learn it, instead of passing judgment on it from the non-objective vantage point of your mother tongue. You don't get to change the rules until you understand them. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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