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Strategy: Learn 600 words a week.

 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages Post Reply
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leosmith
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5460 days ago

2365 posts - 3803 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Tagalog

 
 Message 25 of 167
05 October 2007 at 5:19am | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:

Well, considering that I have retained 95% of 1200 words that I have learned in two weeks using THIS method.

If you're saying that the total amount of time you spent was 30-60 minutes per day, and that the languages were completely new to you, I don't believe you.

xtremelingo wrote:

Collecting high-frequency words can be easily found on the internet (in both target and native) and their simple translations can be done ALL at once through textfile input into a translator. I can do this in a matter of 10 minutes. The longest part would be to actually write the words onto the flashcards themselves.

It doesn't matter how you do it, preparing 100 paper flashcards from scratch for words you've never seen before will take a long time, probably more than an hour, maybe more than 2.

xtremelingo wrote:

200 cards for 600 words is a large number to you?

My apologies. I thought you were talking about modifying existing cards, but I see you are just adding words in any available space.

xtremelingo wrote:

This is coming from someone who hasn't tried it himself. Of course it wouldn't work for you, because the impression I get from you is -- laziness. There's too much reliance on computers/technology -- when sometimes the old tricks are still very effective.

I worked with large numbers of paper flashcards for years - long enough to know that this particular method of yours is terribly inefficient.

I occasionally use paper cards these days, but never for more than a few days. It is much more efficient for me to get things into an electronic program as soon as possible, usually after a few days of study in list form, and let the program manage things. Spending 30 minutes with the computer instead of 30 minutes with paper cards does not make one lazy.

xtremelingo wrote:

It's also very inefficient to open up your laptop computer for a 5-10:minute subway ride, waiting for your computer to load, finally arrive at your stop to only have reviewed nothing, when I can just pop a deck out of my pocket, probably get through the entire thing at lightning speed in the same time. Many do not have the luxury of PDA's either.

I am pretty sure Cardinal Mezzofanti didn't use a computer when he memorized vocabulary by the way.

All very interesting points, but have nothing to do with my criticism of your fictional method of using flashcards.

xtremelingo wrote:

Don't let people like Leosmith prevent you from trying new methods. Try the method yourself, judge it for yourself. Don't let others judge for you.

Since you persist in trying to get people to do this, let me point out specifically why it's so bad.
1) Duplicate, triplicate, quadruplicate, etc, effort. As furyou pointed out, a spaced repetition system is way more efficient.
2) Way to many words per day. If one can afford to spend 3 to 6 hours per day on vocab, then 100 words per day using this system is possible. Keep in mind though that a lot of review is required, and you will soon be spiraling out of control trying to do enough review to stay on top of what you've learned.

I have nothing against flashcards, just this particular method. I also have nothing against learning a lot of vocab fast, if that's what one wants to do. 100 words a day is even possible for some people (using Iversen's method for example). I would suggest looking into the many better methods available here for example.
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luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6115 days ago

3133 posts - 4351 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

 
 Message 26 of 167
05 October 2007 at 5:48am | IP Logged 
luke wrote:
xtremelingo wrote:
It sounds like he was internally motivated, gifted, and not particularly enamored with bowing to authority....Do you think it's possible that proficiency would be quite helpful in connecting with them?


Absolutely, but what is more likely than not.

Mezzofanti, used a computer for flash card drilling.

Mezzofanti, used paper flashcards for drilling.

I would bet my money on the paper flashcards.

Are you suggesting that because computers didn't exist then Mezzofanti must have used paper flash cards? Is there is any chance that he didn't use flashcards?

Edited by luke on 05 October 2007 at 6:31am

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M. Medialis
Diglot
TAC 2010 Winner
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5267 days ago

397 posts - 508 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: Russian, Japanese, French

 
 Message 27 of 167
05 October 2007 at 5:56am | IP Logged 
(Mezzofanti could have been a socially gifted savant. I.e. no need for advanced methods etc.)

I really don't understand this thing about saying "this method doesn't work for me, therefore it's an inefficient method". Do you really believe that everybody acquires language skills in the same way as you do?
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xtremelingo
Trilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5197 days ago

398 posts - 515 votes 
Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi*
Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 28 of 167
05 October 2007 at 6:18am | IP Logged 
Leosmith,

Quote:

2) Way to many words per day. If one can afford to spend 3 to 6 hours per day on vocab, then 100 words per day using this system is possible.


3-6 hours for 100 words?? I'm sorry, but clearly we both have different learning abilities then.

Perhaps I overestimated the learning abilities of some people on this forum. I thought for many this would be a piece of cake.

Here let me spell it out for you, since I think it's the 'complexity' that may be blurring your vision to see the practicality of it.

So I will try to explain once again in the most simplest terms.

Each Group has 10 cards represented by an (imaginary) letter that is pulled from the Total Deck which contains 100 cards (100 words)

PROCEDURE:

- Always shuffle the cards when you goto the next deck or combined decks.

Memorize (in each 'deck' native>target, target>native)

Proceed only to the next "deck"/line only until you have 100% accuracy (both ways).

DECK (Number of Cards in this Deck)

A (10 cards)
B (10 cards)
AB (20 cards)
C (10 cards)
D (10 cards)
CD (20 cards)
E (10 cards)
F (10 cards)
EF (20 cards)
G (10 cards)
H (10 cards)
GH (20 cards)
I (10 cards)
J (10 cards)
IJ (20 cards)
AB+CD = K (40 cards)
EF+GH = L (40 cards)
IJ+K = M (60 cards)
M+L = N (100 cards)

It honestly isn't really that difficult.

Give it an honest shot, and you won't hate me so much for whatever reasons you do.

Note (to all): If 100 is too much to handle. Simply divide everything by two, and do it for 50. If 100 is too easy, multiply by 2 (or higher).

Edited by xtremelingo on 05 October 2007 at 6:52am

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lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5323 days ago

429 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 29 of 167
05 October 2007 at 7:04am | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:
Lloydkirk,

Quote:

Honestly, I never understood why people actually dedicate time to vocab learning.


Everyone is doing vocab learning, including you.


Yes, but there are entirely different ways of going about it. I learn vocabulary by using assimil, foreign aviation magizines, watching movies and other things I enjoy doing but simply in my target language. Also, I love how you comment on my old posts and ignore the most recent one. You had already commented on this post...

Edited by lloydkirk on 05 October 2007 at 7:05am

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jeff_lindqvist
Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5819 days ago

4250 posts - 5710 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 30 of 167
05 October 2007 at 7:30am | IP Logged 
It's interesting to see a "war" as soon as xtremelingo starts a new thread. ;)

He's is mainly presenting another way to learn ~100 words, and I don't think that is impossible. At all. No supermemory. No peg method. Just learning the words in chunks of 10 instead of all hundred in one go.

How difficult can it be to test if it "works"? Even if people here only use software, there must be some kind of setting so you can choose which words to focus on. As an experiment I'm going to test it for a couple days with LingQ, even I can't shuffle the cards, or study the words native->target. Ten words at a time. Then twenty.
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edwin
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5374 days ago

160 posts - 183 votes 
9 sounds
Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin
Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese

 
 Message 31 of 167
05 October 2007 at 8:11am | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:

Many people have their own systems and like your own system, I too have my own system. The difference is, I share.


Actually, many of us DO share our methods in the forums. Perhaps you have not been in the forum long enough, or you did not bother to search for the specific topics. In this case, I don't blame you. It happens to many of the new comers. But then please don't accuse people of not sharing their methods.

apparition wrote:
I'll report back in a few days to let you all know what I think thus far! (As if you really care!)


Please do. Remember you are always welcome to try other methods suggested in this forum. Also remember that time is gold. Find a method that works efficiently for you.

xtremelingo wrote:
Edwin,
What are the advantages? Well my friend, if you read threads completely, you will have noticed this method is for people that PREFER to use paper flash-cards. If you're a computer flashcard nazi, don't bother reading the thread. It isn't meant for you.


Oops. Sorry for bothering you Xtremelingo. I am out of here!
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leosmith
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5460 days ago

2365 posts - 3803 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Tagalog

 
 Message 32 of 167
05 October 2007 at 9:37am | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:

3-6 hours for 100 words?? I'm sorry, but clearly we both have different learning abilities then.

30-60 minutes? Is there anyone here who can even prepare the flashcards in that time? And what about review required for previous days cards? Experience tells me 3-6 hours is about right.

xtremelingo wrote:

Give it an honest shot

No thanks. I don't have that kind of time, and I'm not interested in learning 600 words out of context right now for the sole purpose of making me like you.

How about being honest about the time it will take, modifying your review method so there isn't so much duplicate effort, and explaining how to maintain this over several days/weeks (which would include explaining the additional time it will take to review prior learnings)?

Here, let me help you a little.
xtremelingo wrote:

PROCEDURE:
A (10 cards)
B (10 cards)
AB (20 cards)
C (10 cards)
D (10 cards)
CD (20 cards)
E (10 cards)
F (10 cards)
EF (20 cards)
G (10 cards)
H (10 cards)
GH (20 cards)
I (10 cards)
J (10 cards)
IJ (20 cards)
AB+CD = K (40 cards)
EF+GH = L (40 cards)
IJ+K = M (60 cards)
M+L = N (100 cards)
(total: 440 reps)

Combining decks is a waste of time.
Reviewing more than twice a day is a waste of time.
REVISED PROCEDURE:
A (10 cards)
B (10 cards)
C (10 cards)
D (10 cards)
E (10 cards)
F (10 cards)
G (10 cards)
H (10 cards)
I (10 cards)
J (10 cards)
several hours later, but at least one hour before bed
A (10 cards)
B (10 cards)
C (10 cards)
D (10 cards)
E (10 cards)
F (10 cards)
G (10 cards)
H (10 cards)
I (10 cards)
J (10 cards)
(total: 200 reps)
The rest is up to you. If you insist staying in paper, you might try the paper leitner method, or the 3 stack method for your reviews. However, I would encourage you to take the big leap into the 20th century and dump cards into an electronic flashcard program after you've been in paper for several days, and letting the program manage your reviews. Good luck.

Edited by leosmith on 05 October 2007 at 10:03am



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