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My English teacher really hates Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6226 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 145 of 194 20 November 2007 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
No offense taken. However, while I respect your decision to think what you do, I also think that it's incorrect. I'm yet to see a reason that Esperanto _is_ dangerous as compared to any other language. I haven't seen any evidence that Esperanto is dangerous; all I've seen is ample proof that you consider it to be so, largely based on ideas about Esperanto which don't match my experiences or observations at all. May I ask what brought you to your current views - abstract thought, specific experiences, or a combination, and if experiences were involved, would you describe them? As for your other point, there are people very strongly biased for and against every major language. For instance, there are quite a lot of virulently anti-English-language people, and people who consider it dangerous: and yet, they are probably outnumbered by English learners. I don't think that this is enough to sink a language, or to declare it as not having world support. As for whether you'd give support to Esperanto in Russia: given your views, it's entirely logical that you would not. I don't understand by what you mean by "good guys finish last" in this context; would you explain? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Art07 Groupie Russian Federation Joined 6001 days ago 61 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 146 of 194 20 November 2007 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
I messed up with email in my 'Art' account and can't unlock it, so excuse me for using a new account
First of all, I want to state my previous view on Esperanto, because the last couple of pages I was just guffing around. 1. There is nothing wrong with Esperanto as a language. 2. Esperanto as a movement is very dangerous and as a movement Esperanto share some sort of a cosmopolitan utopian ideology with the heavy scent of communism. I mean there is nothing wrong when people learn Esperanto, talk in it, gather into clubs, visit each other – everyone have a right to have a hobby. It is wrong when people start thinking that there hobby is so important that the whole world should share it and they have a plan how to convert the world. Back to the beginning. When I first heard about Esperanto I heard the usual things about the language problem, the common language, how it would be wonderful to be able to speak with everybody in the world, etc. But!.. I have the experience dealing with cults, many years. Cults mean just that: religious cults, psychological cults, any crazy utopian ideas for the better life, etc. Actually, I was a member of such a thing in my youth for a considerable time. With a lot of efforts I got myself off of that and now I have a gut feeling when something is 'wrong' in the apparently very 'good'; I question a lot; I can distinguish emotional from logical rational and the real life from the utopian one (or at least I think so) So, back to Esperanto. I just smelled there was something wrong with Esperanto as a movement. So, I began to question. The questions were very simple: Are there really so many Esperanto speakers in the world as Esperantists claims? Is Esperanto really neutral? How really it was designed? What views did the inventor of the language share? Why in 120 year it have never got support, not even close? Is Esperanto really that logical and simple? Does it really have 16 rules? Why do Esperantists want the whole world have Esperanto as the second language? Would be I able to use Esperanto without contacting the Esperanto movements? Is there really so many books, movies in Esperanto and of what quality they are? Do Esperantist follow logic or emotion when promoting Esperanto? Do they really different in their goal from the others or they are just one in many crazy movements who think that only they have something unique to offer the world? Etc. The Internet is the real tool! To answer the question about the number of speakers I just went to the local Esperanto clubs and read their report of how many members they have, saw photos and youtube's video of local Esperanto groups throughout the world. The Esperantists grossly overestimate their numbers, I think they count everyone who learnt it at least at the beginners level and who is still alive. About the inventor. I think everyone could find the bio of Zamenhof and why he invented Esperanto. Actually, his political views weren't that neutral and when the movement got momentum, it was a good job not to mention any politics because it would harm the movement. The curious thing I discovered was that the first man who opposed 'the world language' was the father of Zamenhof who destroyed the first work of 'the world language' thinking that it is too political and will not bring peace to his family and his son. He was right eventually; all children of Zamenhof were killed because of this. I did a search by the keyword 'Esperanto' in The New York Times for the years 1900-1910. It was very interesting to read what people thought about it 100 years ago. I read a book by Idists (Ido is the 'sibling' of Esperanto) published in the 1940s and what they think of Esperanto. I found some papers where Esperantists were opposing English and even sent such letters to the European Union. I found rants of people who quit the Esperanto movements. Also I read a lot about the bright sides of Esperanto, saw videos about Esperanto, got a DVD with Esperanto materials from a local Esperanto group. Etc. I mean I did a homework at the Internet and in person about Esperanto. I even learned Esperanto for a couple of weeks. Knowing a little of English and the basics of German Esperanto is an easy target. But my basic skills in Arabic were at now use. Also, Esperanto as it turned out, has more then 16 rules. Those '16 rules' are just a guidelines for those who know at least one European language. The rules are more complicated. Also, there is a lot of different view inside the Esperanto movements itself. Also, I made for myself the common portrait of an Esperantists. In common, they are the same, share a lot in common. I can go on and on... but Back to my gut feelings that sometimes apparent 'good' is just plain 'bad'. I was right. I can go on in details why I think the Esperanto movement isn't that good and actually is that bad, but in short and for short, please read 1984 by George Orwell and his Newspeak. I share that view. -------- Volte, I think you got the idea how I got my 'prejudice' for the Esperanto movement and why I'm not going to change it till the Esperanto movements would be different (I saw no changes in the past 120 years in its history). As I said in the beginning there is nothing wrong in Esperanto as a language. But the thing is that it is very difficult to separate Esperanto as a language from Esperanto as a movement. And the main moral, I think, is: 'Listen to your fathers when they say that some of your ideas are dangerous for the world and you should bury them for good'. Edited by Art07 on 20 November 2007 at 5:35pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| rudyman12 Triglot Newbie United States Joined 6556 days ago 30 posts - 29 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, French, Esperanto Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 147 of 194 20 November 2007 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If Esperanto were to be a universal language, it wouldn't 'destroy' existing languages, it would be a second language for people who wish to be able to communicate on a global scale.
I still have yet to see an argument against Esperanto that applies to the everyday person. I speak Esperanto and I don't see how it is associated with any of the concepts people have brought up. In all, I think people are looking into it too much. It was designed to be just a language, and a neutral one. The only way it can become anything but that is if average people start to associate with the language concepts like Esperanto being a movement or something that's dangerous. Edited by rudyman12 on 20 November 2007 at 6:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6055 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 148 of 194 21 November 2007 at 7:49am | IP Logged | |||||
I knew of arachnophobia, acrophobia, pyrophobia, xenophobia, and now of Esperantophobia. Esperanto has nothing common with communism (at least with the Soviet version), but it is true that a lot of communist propaganda was written in Esperanto, in French, in English, in German etc... Some communists learned Esperanto just to be able to spread their ideas throughout the world. You may have met some of them. Are they still alive? Did you visit the club recently? You might find them "converted" to capitalism even more than you are :-)
More precisely about the 16 rules read The rules 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Art07 Groupie Russian Federation Joined 6001 days ago 61 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 149 of 194 21 November 2007 at 8:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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remush,
I am a human being and one trait of a human being is thinking. I always want to find my answers to my question or at least I'm trying to think for myself before seeing the precompiled answers. I'm always very suspicious to those who offer me answers when I'm not asking for them or who trying to subvert my thinking by offering so called "100% accurate" answers. Edited by Art07 on 21 November 2007 at 12:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6055 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 150 of 194 21 November 2007 at 11:36am | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks for your compliment. I am already very glad if my answers are 80% correct. Don't feel frustrated not to be the first one to ask the questions. The beast has lived for 120 years, don't forget it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6226 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 151 of 194 21 November 2007 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Remush: what you said about the 16 rules is simply untrue. "It is true that you have to assimilate the 16 rules to speak Esperanto at the beginner's level, but it's far from enough to be considered an expert in the language."
It is _not_ true that you need to understand/assimilate the 16 rules: they're poorly written, inconsistent, and vary from translation to translation. One source: http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/y.html One choice quote:
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6257 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 152 of 194 21 November 2007 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As Zamenhof said himself in the foreword, the 16 rules in the Fundamento are not meant to be an exhaustive grammar or a set of rules for students to learn, they are not even the best descriptions of the grammar parts in question. However, they are the parts that mustn't be changed about Esperanto - and it doesn't even matter what you call them or in which language you describe them. While the Fundamento for most Esperanto speakers is only of interest as a historical document, I do value it as the key factor why Esperanto has 99% of planned language speakers today, by giving Esperanto stability and almost immunity from the huge community discussions of what the ideal language should / should not have.
Unfortunately some Esperanto speakers also use the Fundamento in order to promote the idea that Esperanto has no more and no less than 16 rules - which can't be said as such of course. What they mean is clear: that Esperanto grammar is short and easy to learn, but that can be shown in a much less controversial manner: for example by handing out little flyers like http://www.esperanto.de/dej/elshutoj/soleichtschwarz2_UM.pdf, which already contains almost all Esperanto grammar and a decent-sized vocabulary on one printed page. By the way, I didn't have the chance to read all that http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/y.html says about the Fundamento, but I generally don't trust that site. For example in their pronunciation section they also claim that Esperanto's sounds were borrowed from Zamenhof's native dialect, comparing them in detail to that dialect (which has 15 phonemes that don't exist in Esperanto) but neglecting to compare them to Italian or Spanish. Most people told me Esperanto sounds like Italian or Spanish, not like Polish at all. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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