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How to best use 2-3 hours a day for study

 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery Post Reply
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jmlgws
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 6978 days ago

102 posts - 104 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French, German, Spanish, Mandarin

 
 Message 1 of 16
11 November 2007 at 1:28pm | IP Logged 
Professor Arguelles,

Thank you again for all of the help you have given to me and others the forum. In this post I wanted to describe a bit about my current situation and goals for the next several years, and ask several questions on how to get there.

First, let me describe my situation. I am 32, single, with no formal training in languages (educated as a physicist, now work as an actuary). I had been interested in learning languages for a while, but only seriously started self-study about 3 years ago, in French. About 1 year ago I have also started Spanish. My main materials in both languages have been Assimil and FSI materials, both of which I find useful in different ways. In particular I so thoroughly enjoy the cultural snippets in the "Using" series that I almost am tempted to seek out languages which have this second Assimil volume.

Currently while I do review course materials in French from time to time (e.g. shadow some Using French lectures before going to a French conversation group), and do plan a bit more detailed study of grammar, most of my time with French is spent listening/shadowing to either news/documentary materials (e.g. Radio France/RFI, Radio-Canada on different subjects) or literature (currently shadowing "Around the World in 80 Days" and "The Three Musketeers", no serious difficulties with either one though there are definitely new words). I have never taken a "formal" language level test, I suspect though that I would have to study to pass a DELF/DALF etc. I can fairly happily chat and understand most subjects in French, but do make certain grammatical mistakes in emails. My Spanish level is somewhat lower, I can express myself and understand the news, but have more problems with telenovellas and need to pause because I miss a word while speaking.

I assume I have 2 hours/day to study languages, perhaps 3 hours when less busy at work, and perhaps more including "leisure" activities in other languages (e.g. watching French TV, listening to French or Spanish radio while at work). I am most interested in language learning for cultural and social purposes, with an eye to potential economic use, so at this time I would be more interested in languages with many speakers worldwide, many speakers here in Toronto, with a major literary tradition etc. I do have some "philological" interests though, e.g. the idea of learning an entire language family is appealing, as is the idea of learning languages related to English (learning French has taught me a lot about English, presumably learning a Germanic language would do so as well from a different angle).

In addition to French and Spanish, here are the languages I am most interested for the next several years:

Italian/Portuguese - the two other "major" Romance languages, both having huge populations in Toronto

German - important culturally, sizeable community in Toronto, important economically including in my work (i.e. many major insurance companies from Germany or Switzerland)

Russian - personal fascination with culture, and with the many educated Eastern Europeans that I have encountered in my grad school studies. Sizeable community in Toronto, larger Polish and Ukrainian communities though.

Chinese - cultural significance, huge community in Toronto, other interests in the language (e.g. traditional Chinese medicine). Also I am half Chinese (other half Anglo-Saxon, hence the British name), so I feel I "should" learn it to rediscover my roots. "Chinese" probably means first Mandarin, then Cantonese, the former because it is much more economically important, the latter because my Mom's background is in fact Cantonese, it might be nice to go to family gatherings and speak it etc.

There are more languages that might interest me, though I expect the above list will keep me busy for the next decade or so. Here are some other "secondary" possibilities down the line. Of course the lists can change with time, but this is my best guess.

Latin - to help me complete the Romance family

Greek - thriving community in Toronto, and root of many English words

Hindi - huge South Asian community in Toronto, Hindi is the most important South Asian language (though I have been told that Punjabi is actually the most spoken South Asian language in Canada)

Germanic - Dutch or Scandinavian languages might be interesting to help me with the Germanic family. Also there are "Perfectionnement" Assimil books in Dutch and a Swedish volume 2, in French and Spanish I have enjoyed the "Using" books much more than the "with Ease", I am almost tempted to try these languages to get to these second volumes. The main disadvantage is that the number of people who speak these languages isn't so large worldwide or here in Toronto.

Slavic - Both Polish and Ukrainian have large communities here in Toronto.

As far as the questions:

1) German is next for me. It is a useful language in many disciplines, it has potential immediate economic use to me (my company has its headquarters in German Switzerland, I can see a disproportionate number of German managers etc.), it is still relatively "easy" but harder than Class I languages like French and Spanish.

You have also stated that all budding polyglots should learn German relatively early in their careers. Is there something specific that German-speakers can use to learn other languages? For example, people who can read French can use Assimil, is there something similar, or should I ask these questions in the future about specific languages (e.g. I am planning to learn Language X, are there French or German language materials that are useful?)

Related to the above, are there other obvious "gateway" languages (e.g learning Language X will open up Languages A, B, C etc.), or is it just one should learn the largest/most significant member of a given language family first?

2) You have described in some depth suggestions on how to study the Romance family and how to study the Slavic family. Have you ever made a similar post for the Germanic family? If not, is there a preferred methodology (presumably German is first)?

3) Do you have a suggested order of studying my target languages? How many languages should I have before tackling a "hard" language (Russian and eventually Chinese)? Some on this forum have suggested sticking to "easy" languages, then moving to the next harder language, etc. That would mean, after German, Italian then Portuguese or vice versa, then Russian (Level 2 language), then Chinese (Level 3). Others have suggested alternating "hard" and "easy" languages (so perhaps Russian, then Italian, then Chinese, then Portuguese). Others suggest heading straight to a hard language, because it will take a lot of time (i.e. go straight to Chinese). Also, it seems to me that Russian and Chinese are "different" types of hard (Russian because of the grammar, Chinese because of the writing).

4) I also want to add that I might be specifically intimidated by Chinese. When young I went to Chinese school every Saturday without actually learning the language. In retrospect this is because I didn't have nearly the amount of exposure necessary, since my family didn't speak Chinese at home, but I still feel intimidated. However looking much more Asian than Caucasian, people do from time to time walk up to me and try to speak to me in Chinese, so I feel I "should" speak Chinese "very well". I feel a sort of pressure that I don't with other languages (which I am not "supposed" to speak).

Is it just a matter of having lower expectations after a period of time with a Level 2 or Level 3 language? For example, I plan to add German some time next year, after having gone through Using Spanish and several more lessons of FSI Spanish, in part because I did something similar with French; after Using French and about half of FSI French, I felt that I had enough of a base to converse reasonably freely and to improve my language "organically" largely with native-language materials, talking to native French speakers etc. Should I just assume that after finishing Assimil Chinese 2 plus a bunch of FSI Chinese lessons that I won’t have a similar base, and that I would need something else to be able to say learn just by watching Chinese language TV or talking to Chinese speakers? To put it another way, are Level 2 and Level 3 languages "harder" (i.e. after a few hundred hours worth of work I won't be able to say much more than basic phrases and will understand little) or just "bigger" (I'll understand somewhat how the languages work, just need to learn many more new words)? Is the fact that I am asking the above questions mean that I should stay with Level 1 languages for a little while longer?

Thank you for your thoughts. I hope the above message wasn't too long to get through. As mentioned by another poster, this is a multi-year project, so no hurry on the responses. Best regards,

Lleweilun Smith

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ProfArguelles
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foreignlanguageexper
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 Message 2 of 16
18 November 2007 at 5:35pm | IP Logged 
Mr. Smith, thank you very much for your substantive and properly articulated inquiry. Please do not apologize for the length, as I need these kinds of details in order to make reasonable recommendations for someone whom I do not know.

With 2 hours a day at your disposal, you can accomplish a fair amount, but you will need to find a way to devote more time to your language studies if you hope to achieve all your aspirations.

I will answer one of your three specific questions today, one next week, and the last one the week after that. So, regarding German:

I assume, in your references to Class I, II, III, and IV languages, that you are referring to the Foreign Service Institute categorization? I also use FSI scales and categories as a basis for reference and discussion, as in the on-going Time Management thread, but just as I subject their timings to scrutiny and critique, so also do I question their categorization of the relatively difficulty of a good number of languages. While they must have labeled German a Class II language based on their experience, in my own, it is emphatically a Class I language, albeit with a different learning curve from that you have experienced with French and Spanish.

German is still a highly inflecting language, which means that you need lots of practice in order to speak with grammatical accuracy, but apart from that it is no more difficult than the other Teutonic tongues. All in all, I doubt the intricacies of its inflections are objectively any more complex than, e.g., the highly developed verbal system you have already encountered in Spanish.

I would put all Western European (Romance and Germanic) languages in Class I, while Class II would be for Eastern European languages, Class III for exotics that have some mitigating factors facilitating their acquisition, and Class IV for those that have none. When working this scale out in detail, I would of course have differentiations such as I+ or II- for individual languages, but I doubt I would ever be able to place even an admittedly easy exotic such as Swahili in Class I, as they have done based on their experience.

Acquiring the phonetics and the mechanics of a new language is only a relatively finite first step; building a rich vocabulary is a process that is inherently longer, indeed infinite, and always more so in the exotic than in the familiar. There is no question that some languages require infinitely more hours than others in order to attain the same ability to read or speak freely in them. However, you can come to see all of this in different terms. Affinity and your will to concentrate your time and energy upon it are far more important in your ability to develop a rewarding relationship with a foreign language than their grammatical or lexical structures, and your continued interest in a language can be called forth by precisely those same traits that more utilitarian learners label as difficult.

In short, I do not believe you will find it any more arduous to acquire German than you found it to learn French and Spanish. As you already admire Assimil, simply enjoy working through both levels and so do so in a thoroughgoing and systematic fashion. As you have 2 hours a day, reserve 30 minutes each for using French and Spanish and devote a regular and systematic hour a day to German each and every day for the next 365 days and you will be very pleased with how much progress you will have made.

There is no single German resource that can match the range of the Assimil series in particular, but as a reference language in every respect, German matches both English and French, and this is one reason why I state that all budding polyglots should learn these languages first. There is a high probability that not knowing any one of them will severely restrict your range of resources for learning any other language that might require your attention.

As to your terminology in the last part of this question, when I think of “gateway” languages I think more of the likes of Persian. These three are really more simply crucial “key” languages.

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jmlgws
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 6978 days ago

102 posts - 104 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French, German, Spanish, Mandarin

 
 Message 3 of 16
25 November 2007 at 10:01am | IP Logged 
Professor Arguelles,

Thank you for your detailed response.

First, as far as time. Currently I am spending about 3 hours/day, more of which is Spanish. I think that that is doable most of the time, as I have about a 75 min commute to/from work each day (45 min train ride, 15 min walking from home to the station, and 15 min from the downtown station to work). That is 2 1/2 hours of mostly "unused" time, if I can use 2 hours of that for language study, plus do some reading or watching foreign language TV at home I can easily get that to 3 hours. Next spring though I will be taking a work-related course, I am worried that I might encroach on this time, hence the lower estimate.

I am following the organizing time threads, I do think I might be able to squeeze a bit more time out (3 1/2 hours? 4 hours?), though I would rather gradually add time in a new routine than immediately jump in and perhaps burn myself out. Still I think that ultimately will not have anything like the 6 or 7 hours of some of the folks here, nor am I sure that I want to commit almost all of my non-work waking hours to just language learning. As I get more ability in a language, and I can do more things in it, it is easier for me to commit more time as I can combine interests (e.g. using French to learn history). At the end of your responses I would be interested perhaps in your thoughts on how much time I will need to achieve different goals. I am glad though that 1 hour/day for a year will suffice to make good progress in German, that together with maintaining/improving my French and Spanish will be enough to keep me busy through 2008.

I was referring to the FSI classification, but perhaps I had the wrong or old list, I did not recall any class IV languages in that list. I was using this list:

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/learningExpectation s.html

(no space in front of the last "s", the forum seems to have added it). Should I believe that the "standard" toughest languages (i.e. Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Korean) are Class IV languages, or are you referring to even more exotic languages than that (say spoken-only native languages)?

I do greatly enjoy Assimil, but especially the second volume. "Using French" (and "Using Spanish", which I am working through now) is very eclectic with everything from colloquial speech to history and geography to culture. The variety of topics helps keep my interest and helps to inspire me to go further. I bought an audiobook version of "Pere Goriot" because of the lesson in "Using French", and I am still searching for an audiobook version of "Les Miserables". Perhaps the first volume isn't quite as enjoyable because I am very much getting my bearings in the language. Also I find that I want another resource when starting off so that I can get some standard phrases down pat (e.g. "Hello, my name is Llew. How are you?" etc. These are in Assimil, but there is so much to learn there I might not learn these basic phrases as well immediately.) Somehow "Business French" didn't have quite the topic appeal to me as "Using French", I don't think I got as much out of it and certainly didn't enjoy it as much. I feel I should review in some detail "Using French" and "Business French" at some point, I'm sure I could learn more from another pass though them.

Thank you again and I look forward to your further thoughts. Regards,

Lleweilun Smith
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ProfArguelles
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 Message 4 of 16
25 November 2007 at 5:49pm | IP Logged 
Mr. Smith, indeed Class IV refers precisely and specifically to Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean.

The second request in your original letter was for some in-depth suggestions as to how to go about studying the entire Germanic family of languages. I have not done this before, as indeed I have here for both the Romance and the Slavic families, but I will be happy to reason out some thoughts on the matter here and now.

The Teutonic languages are classified into many more historical stages than are the Latin and Slavic languages. While one can certainly find readers for older Iberian or Italic texts, apart from Latin itself, Old French and Provencal are the only stages of Latin that are commonly given their own historic presentation and treatment. As for the Slavs, I believe that apart from Old Church Slavonic/Old Bulgarian there are no particular manuals for analyzing and becoming acquainted with specific “old” or “middle” stages of any of them. The Germanic languages, on the other hand, all have at least a distinct medieval/early modern phase, and a number of them have an even older historical variant as well. Thus, the study of the Teutonic family as a whole is a perfect training ground for witnessing and internalizing the principles of comparative philology.

To begin the study of the Germanic language family by studying the historic variants before the living ones has many advantages. For the most part they are only skeletons of languages, and studying them accordingly one can get a decent analytical overview of their particularities within a single semester each. Scrutinizing them sequentially as a course of study, you can gain deep insight into how languages are related to each other and how they change over time. You learn to see them as individuals because you are simultaneously acknowledging both their similarities and their differences. In terms of the practical benefits of doing this, all I can say is that this is exactly what I did for a number of years, and as a result I came to a point where I could perceive all Germanic languages/dialects as variations upon a theme, a theme that I knew so well than when I came into contact with living dialectical variations on the theme, acclimating myself to their communicative frequencies posed no challenge.

Apart from the many historical variants of the Teutonic tribe and the generally recognized living Germanic languages, there are also a considerable number of non-official dialects that show some continued resiliency into the 21st century. Indeed, there are so many names that could be attached to Germanic forms of speech that I do not even want to attempt a complete list for fear of leaving too many out. The major candidates for study in terms of accessibility are generally:

Older and Medieval languages:
East: Gothic
West: Old High German, Middle High German, Old English/Anglo-Saxon, Middle English, Old Saxon, Middle Dutch, Middle Frisian
North: Old Norse, Old Swedish

Gothic is the only representative of the extinct Eastern branch of the family that has left enough traces for study. Middle High German, Middle English, and Old Norse in particular provide access to treasure troves of exciting literature, so these should come in for particular consideration.

One approach would be to take them in a logical historical and sub-family genetic sequence, e.g., Gothic, Old High German, Middle High German, and Old Norse. Speaking from experience, after studying these four for about a semester each, most of the others came in the bargain, with attention certainly required, but without the need for any further expenditure of “study” time.

Another approach, perhaps of easier access to English and German speakers—and perhaps also more valuable for them—would be to swim backwards through their native tongues and then branch out, e.g., Middle High German, Old High German, Gothic, Old Norse, or Middle English, Old English, Old Norse, Gothic.

Spending 360 hours spread over a two year period engaged in this study should greatly reduce the number of hours you need to spend studying modern Germanic languages in order to know them. The major candidates here are:

West: German, Yiddish; Dutch/Flemish, Afrikaans; Frisian, English
North: Icelandic, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish.

With the modern languages as well, I think it is probably only necessary to actively and consciously study a handful of them, after which you will find that you can simply acquire the others with active exposure to them without anything like the same requisite period of conscious study. So, which ones to choose, and with which ones to start:

Indeed, German should certainly be the first with which to establish a solid connection. In this particular field, most of the best classic scholarship is in German, and so it is an absolutely indispensable reference tool for this quest. Thus, it is the only “must” on the list, for while English is fascinating for its anomalies and the degree to which it has changed almost out of the family, consequently it is not the best choice in the particular context of the quest to understand the family as a unit. Thus, for getting grounded in the group, I would recommend proceeding thus: German, Icelandic, Dutch, and Swedish. In starting with German, you start with a Western/Continental, so the next should be a Scandinavian, and Icelandic, like German, is still highly inflecting. Then back to the West, then again to the North—Dutch and Swedish are respectively the largest in these categories, so they are most logical, but Frisian or Afrikaans, or Danish or either Norwegian, could certainly substitute for them as objects of conscious study, and they should do so if there is any particular reason or opportunity for this.

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jmlgws
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 6978 days ago

102 posts - 104 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French, German, Spanish, Mandarin

 
 Message 5 of 16
02 December 2007 at 8:26am | IP Logged 
Professor Arguelles,

Thank you for your very detailed response. Would you consider Icelandic to be a Category I language even though it is highly inflecting (the list I have calls Icelandic a Category II). I am fascinated by the idea of learning an entire language family, if I do either Germanic or Romance would seem to be easiest/most logical. My biggest concern at the moment with Germanic is that, other than English and German, other Germanic languages are relatively "small" and hence less important/more difficult for a non-linguist like myself to study than other "larger" languages. German is next up on my list though for 2008, I shall see how it goes, thank you for providing a road map for Germanic if I decide to try that family.

I look forward to your next informative post. Thank you again and regards,

Lleweilun Smith
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ProfArguelles
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foreignlanguageexper
Joined 7132 days ago

609 posts - 2102 votes 

 
 Message 6 of 16
02 December 2007 at 4:57pm | IP Logged 
Today, Mr. Smith, on to your third question about a personalized language learning sequence, with its embedded fourth question about your particular situation in regards to Chinese, and your coda query about what to expect when studying more difficult languages compared to your current experience with less difficult ones.

I do not see the sense in alternating “hard” and “easy” languages, but there is good logic behind both other sequential approaches. After studying five or six “easy” languages, you will have acquired so much general language learning experience that, when you turn to a “hard” language, you will emphatically not find it to be as daunting and demanding as you would have had you gone straight for it. On the other hand, “difficult” languages do indeed require many more years of engagement before you can get any real enjoyment out of your relationship, and life is limited and of uncertain duration, so if you aspire to know and use something like Chinese some day, then you had indeed better get going.

I would recommend that you go by your affinities rather than attempting to make long range plans now, for your interests could very well change and then all this planning would be for naught. As you know that your next targets will be German and Chinese, may I suggest that you leave off further planning and just go for these for now? If you were a “normal” learner I would never recommend this to you, but as you are in a polyglot room, I would indeed suggest that you tackle them simultaneously. You can easily divide 3 hours a day between 4 languages—an hour a day to the each of the old, plus half each to the two new, or vice versa.   If you try this and find it disturbing, you can always stop, but if you do not try it, you will not know if you are able to do this, and you must be able to do this in order to become a polyglot, particularly with your relatively late start. Your learning strategies for German and for Chinese can and should be quite different. Learning languages always involves some degree of psychological warfare with oneself, and in cases like yours with regards to Chinese (a heritage language with complexes and issues), you do face a real battle. I would suggest that you take phonetic training and practice speaking aloud via shadowing and the like to the utmost extreme in order to overcome your inhibitions. With German, on the other hand, you can add understanding and analysis in much higher doses, much sooner.

To use your terms, I would have to say that difficult languages are both actually “harder” than easier ones and “bigger” than them. All languages are systems for perceptions into a code that can be internally thought in connected sequence and externally articulated for communication. The sounds and sound patterns through which they do this, as well as the grammatical logic that they use, are similar to or different from other such systems to various relative degrees. To dominate the sounds and the patterns of Level IV/III/II languages is indeed simply “harder” than it is for Level I languages. However, with diligence and application, you can come to that point within just a few years, but then comes the “bigger” part, for languages are not just systems of expression, they are carriers of what is expressed in them. The battle begins with vocabulary acquisition, but it goes well beyond that into the whole realm of cultural frames of reference, values, sensibilities, ingrained philosophical and spiritual strands of thought, and the like. When you, as a native English speaker, enter French or Spanish or German, you enter a variant system for talking about essentially the same things in many of the same terms. When you, as a native English speaker, enter an exotic tongue, you must learn a different system for talking about different things in different terms.

In this respect, Icelandic is probably a I+ language, not because of its inflections, but because of the purity of its word stock, i.e., because there is so good as no common international Latinate terminology.

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ProfArguelles
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foreignlanguageexper
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 Message 7 of 16
29 March 2008 at 10:45am | IP Logged 
Mr. Smith, how are your language studies coming along? Well, I do hope, but I wonder if I can offer you any further assistance? In any case, I am curious, and I would simply be appreciative of periodic progress reports from those who have sought my counsel in this regard.
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jmlgws
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 6978 days ago

102 posts - 104 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French, German, Spanish, Mandarin

 
 Message 8 of 16
13 April 2008 at 8:15am | IP Logged 
Professor Arguelles,

Thank you for asking. I have not responded sooner because I have not spent that much time on the forum lately, and did not see this post until today. Between work tasks and a work-related professional development course, I have been and shall be fairly busy until some time in May, when I hope to spend more time in language pursuits.

I have made some progress in German. I am barely a quarter of the way through Assimil German with Ease, but at this point I am reasonably confident that the learning curve with German isn't too terribly different than Spanish or French. I am starting to notice the influence of German culture and German writers on Western culture in general, which should help to keep up my interest. I have also peeked ahead into Perfectionnment Allemand, and look forward to see the literature excerpts and the interviews with the personalities (and as a side-note, as a former physicist I am rather annoyed that they attribute Einstein won a Nobel Prize for relativity, rather than the photoelectric effect). All to say that I believe I have enough curiousity and momemtum in German that I can carry forward in its study. I haven't quite yet gotten to the level that I can easily understand Deutsche Welle radio though, nor can I carry on a conversation.

I cannot really say the same with Mandarin. I think a lot of the difficulty is just time, I have been in general busier the past few months and have cut back on most hobbies. I do have Assimil Chinese's two volumes, but haven't yet gotten into them. On the advice of some forum members I was intending to try the Michel Thomas courses on Mandarin, which is a method I have not yet tried but am thinking perhaps it might be "easier" to start. I have pretty much stopped trying Mandarin for the moment, but want to start again after May. More than any specific progress, I am hoping to learn enough to get the momentum to keep going here.

I think I might have made the most progress in Spanish. There is a colleague in the office from El Salvador, so I can fairly easily practice a few phrases here and there. Also I have enough knowledge of Spanish to make a serious go at an audiomagazine that I had previously purchased but I thought often went over my head ("Punto Y Coma"). I do have "Don Quixote" but haven't really made a serious attempt at it yet; tried using the L-R method but I think I wasn't yet ready for it. I am also wondering whether I should be trying a more recent book with audio, I was actually curious whether I could purchase the audio to something like "Cien Anos de Soledad"? I think I need to find something at the "right level", more meaty than some of the parallel short stories I have but less than Don Quixote.

I feel my progress is slowing in French, my first and still strongest foreign language. Part of it is I haven't had enough time to go to some local French meetups, and I haven't been able to easily practice French at the office currently. I have "Les Trois Mousquetaires", I haven't yet made a good go of the text but I do have it on audio as well and from time to time listen to chapters. I continue to listen to French (and Spanish) news almost daily, and there is a Radio France podcast ("2000 ans d'histoire") which I really enjoy. I feel that if I got myself a bit better organized and spent a bit more time I should be able to take my French to the next level, but perhaps am plateuing a bit right now.

I would say, in summary. Mandarin - need to start again. German - I have made a start, think I can carry forwards, want to get to understanding webcasts. Spanish - most progress recently. French - still my best foreign language, would like to progress a bit faster though.

Thank you for your thoughts. Best regards,

Lleweilun Smith


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