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German R vs. French R

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Journeyer
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 Message 1 of 8
25 November 2007 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
Could someone explain to me the differences between the German "R" in for example "Reise" and the standard French "R" in say "Roche"? (I'm speaking of the standard German "R" one might here of the Deutsche Welle radio, as opposed to the R's used in Southern Germany, Austria and German-speaking Switzerland).

I always thought that the French R was a vibration of the uvula, and pronounced it as such, as well as pronounced the German R that too (where appropriate in the words, that is).

However, I spoke with a French-speaking Canadian the other day, and he assured me that the French R is not uvular (I'm not sure what the linguistic terms are), but rather come from deeper in the throat.

Is the standard French R basically the same sound as the German "ch" in the word "Dach," or is it the voiced equivalent? And is the German "r" uvular or pronounced from the bottom of the throat?

Are the sounds in the language the same, or are they different?

Thanks!
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FrozenNorth
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 Message 2 of 8
26 November 2007 at 2:57am | IP Logged 
I originally typed out a longer post but it was kind of convoluted and didn't make too much sense, at least in my eyes, so had a look on YouTube to see whether there were any videos on the subject and thankfully there were. As such: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W5SuUTKuQNM

The French R is something I had trouble with at school, and still overpronounce it at times - I guess it just takes practice *Le shrug*
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Hencke
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 Message 3 of 8
26 November 2007 at 4:33am | IP Logged 
Could it be different depending on whether it's an initial R or in between other sounds ?

That youtube video was a little disappointing as she spends the first two and a half of the three and a half minutes explaining in different ways that she really can't explain it. But when she pronounces the example sentence "Je regarde par la fenêtre" slowly and clearly, pausing between words, I think I hear the first R in "regarde" as uvular and the second R as softer and further back in the throat (and "par" merges with "la" and I hear that R as soft, and the final R in "fenêtre" somewhere in between).

EDIT: That softer one may be pronounced in roughly the same part of the throat as the German -ach sound, but the difference is that it is voiced while the -ach sound is not.

Again, this is based on what it "feels" like to me, hoping to perhaps provoke some further discussion and see what comes up. I might be totally wrong and look forward to being corrected by others with _real_ knowledge on this.

Edited by Hencke on 26 November 2007 at 4:51am

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ElfoEscuro
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 Message 4 of 8
26 November 2007 at 4:45pm | IP Logged 
Journeyer wrote:
Could someone explain to me the differences between the German "R" in for example "Reise" and the standard French "R" in say "Roche"?

There is no difference. In both languages the letter "r" is pronounced as an uvular approximant (or trill) at the beginning of words.

Journeyer wrote:
However, I spoke with a French-speaking Canadian the other day, and he assured me that the French R is not uvular (I'm not sure what the linguistic terms are), but rather come from deeper in the throat.

This Canadian you spoke with is quite wrong. The standard French "r" is indeed an uvular sound although some southern French dialects use an alveolar sound.
I can not believe s/he is suggesting a sound from deeper in the throat as this suggests something like a pharyngeal or epiglottal approximant.
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Journeyer
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 Message 5 of 8
26 November 2007 at 5:20pm | IP Logged 
Well, and it could be a regional thing, as well. I tried to learn standard German, but I'm sure that it is influenced by the region I lived in (Trier, the southwest, near the border of Luxembourg and France). Occasionally when I spoke German people thought I was a Frenchman because I could do the "r", in that they usually could tell I was not German, couldn't normally hear any American in my accent. But I guess I was wondering if I was doing the "r" correctly in the first place.
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Hencke
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 Message 6 of 8
26 November 2007 at 6:07pm | IP Logged 
ElfoEscuro wrote:
There is no difference. In both languages the letter "r" is pronounced as an uvular approximant (or trill) at the beginning of words.

Interesting, thanks. Up to there it seems to agree with the ideas I had. Would you care to elaborate on how is it pronounced in other positions than at the beginning of words ?
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ElfoEscuro
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 Message 7 of 8
27 November 2007 at 5:02pm | IP Logged 
^
Sure.
German
-"er" = [ɐ] (near-open central vowel) when at the end of a syllable in an unstressed syllable. ex: Lehrer
-"r" = [ɐ] when between a vowel (except "a") & a consonant. ex: Kurs; when between a vowel (except "a" or unstressed "e") & at the end of a word. ex: der
-"r" is silent when between "a" & a consonant. ex: Markt; when between "a" & at the end of a word. ex: Haar
-"r" = [ʁ] (uvular approximant) when at the beginning of words; when between a consonant & a vowel. ex: trinken
-"r" = [ʀ] (uvular trill) when between 2 vowels. ex: hören

French
-"r" = [ʁ] or [ʀ] in all positions except at the ends or words (unless the next word begins with a vowel)
-"r" is silent at the end of words (unless the next word begins with a vowel, in which case it becomes [ʁ] or [ʀ])
-"rr" = [ʁ]
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laiwai
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 Message 8 of 8
29 November 2007 at 8:05am | IP Logged 
Shouldn't it be noted as well that the pronunciation of the letter varies quite widly between french speakers. In the parisian style French, wich is what the girl is speaking (right?), the R becomes more slurred, towards a 'ch' sound in German. Whereas with other speakers you can hear a very clearly pronunced proper R from the throat, wich is more of whats being described in a french fonetics book for example. The R in the front of the mouth still exists (perhaps in southern France, but maybe more notebly in parts of French speaking Canada)(and in the Maghreb area) but is slowly dying out. Among african speakers (sub saharan) the R becomes very soft, or often disappears completely.
So, what's the standart can be discussed, but it's useful to be aware of the differences.

Edited by laiwai on 29 November 2007 at 8:12am



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