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"Perfect Pronunciation" | ||
Tags: Greek | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6220 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 1 of 131 30 November 2007 at 8:54am | IP Logged | ||
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A relatively frequent topic on this forum is achieving "perfect" or "indistinguishable from native a native speaker" pronunciation. Any number of theories on how to do this have been proposed. One of the more popular ones is shadowing, but it's also clear that it's possible to have a non-native accent despite extensive shadowing (cf ProfArguelles' posts, mentioning extensive shadowing, but nonetheless having a slight foreign accent).
My question has a few components: - Who on this forum has achieved 'perfect pronunciation' in a non-native language, starting after adolescence? (Pointers to people outside of the forum who have indisputably done so, and are still alive, are also ok). - How? What techniques did you use: shadowing, immersion, silent periods, working with professional speech therapists, some combination, none of these..? - How specific of an accent did you aim for: a town/region, a country, a particular subgroup, a 'standard educated' accent, or..? How did you decide? - Did you attempt to limit your exposure to other accents at any point(s) during this process? Please don't answer this with theories which aren't backed up with examples of one or more people who have used them successfully: either yourself, or someone who has documented it thoroughly. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Asiafeverr Diglot Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 6123 days ago 346 posts - 431 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, German | Message 2 of 131 30 November 2007 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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If I might add another question: do you think it is possible to get a native accent once you already know a language but got used to pronounce it incorrectly (in my case, English)?
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| SamD Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6440 days ago 823 posts - 987 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 3 of 131 30 November 2007 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've heard so many native speakers of English mispronounce English words that I believe that "perfect" pronunciation is not as common (at least among English speakers) as we might think. Perhaps a more desirable or practical goal would be the ability to pronounce words as a reasonably well educated native speaker.
I think it's tough to acquire a truly native accent. I started to study French well before puberty and had considerable exposure to native speakers. I studied French for eight years. Native speakers have said nice things about my French. They've told me that I don't sound American, but they're never quite sure where I'm from. My native Cleveland accent doesn't come through in my French; I've been taken for British and German. I went to college in Vermont, and I remember consciously modeling my accent on both French and Quebecois influences at various times. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6220 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 4 of 131 30 November 2007 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | ||
I put 'perfect pronunciation' in quotes. By this I mean correct pronunciation of all phonemes in the language, not just individually, but also in all the combinations that occur in the language (ie, if a language has one t and one r sound, as well as 'tr', to be able to pronounce all 3 correctly, and regardless of what the previous or next syllable is). I'd include correct prosody in this definition as well. I don't mean pronouncing every single word correctly all the time; as you pointed out, everyone, including native speakers, is incapable of that. I mean pronunciation which is consistently mistaken for native, by other native speakers, and ideally not only ones who are from areas with wildly divergent accents or dialects from the accent you adopt. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Julie Heptaglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6684 days ago 1251 posts - 1733 votes 5 sounds Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French | Message 5 of 131 30 November 2007 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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After having read your first post in this thread I felt intimidated; now after thix explanation I can try to write something... My German pronunciation is certainly not perfect (I've recorded my voice so you can listen to it) but as far as I can pronounce all the phonemes correctly, and I usually do it (at least I was told it, although I've been almost begging my language exchange partner recently to find something wrong in my pronunciation;)). I still have problems with prosody, particularly by reading - I have an impression it just doesn't sound German enough to me. My intonation is much better and more natural when I speak. I've managed twice to pass for a native speaker so far ;).
I used to speak and hear German frequently so the immersion was probably the most important method (although I've never spent in a German-speaking country more than a month). I asked German speakers a lot if I pronounce a particular sound correctly and I kept repeating it until they thought it was better (or maybe they were just fed up with my pronunciation ;)). I read pretty much about German phonetics and tried to learn the pronunciation as a system. I also read how to pronounce some louds, and I had phonetics class as the university (one semester). That would be all, I guess. I don't aim for a very specific accent (although I do plan to go to Germany for a year maybe and then I'll probably pick up the accent of place where I'll be living). I chose South German accent because I had more exposure it and I liked it more than the North one. I didn't limited exposure to other accents. What I like about German language is its diversity. It would be a pity to avoid it, even if my accent is worse due to exposure to many variants of the language. I couldn't even think of an example in which the gender gives a different meaning. By the way, I passed twice for a native speaker from... Austria (and Austrians said so) which was kind of strange as my exposure to this accent was minimal. I even joked later that maybe all my pronunciation mistakes are just differences between German and Austrian pronunciation... But it was interesting to me. I guess it could be because of my intonation (I have an impression that the Austrian intonation is much closer to Polish than the German one). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6220 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 6 of 131 01 December 2007 at 2:12am | IP Logged | ||
siomotteikiru relayed this to me via email, in response to this thread and a question I asked on the definition of "natural listening"; it is reproduced below, with permission.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Denitsa Tetraglot Newbie Bulgaria Joined 6444 days ago 8 posts - 8 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Bulgarian*, EnglishC2, German, Russian Studies: Swiss-German, French | Message 7 of 131 01 December 2007 at 3:38am | IP Logged | ||
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I couldn't find specific information on how exactly she did it (except that she studied in a language school and later in an university in Bulgaria), but apparently the English pronunciation of the Bulgarian journalist Ralitsa Vassileva is good enough to allow her to present the world news on CNN.
Some videos can be found here. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| aru-aru Triglot Senior Member Latvia Joined 6238 days ago 244 posts - 331 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, Russian | Message 8 of 131 01 December 2007 at 4:10am | IP Logged | ||
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I guess it's all about the amount of exposure. My mother started learning russian in her late teens (school), and, after long years working in a company where most of the staff were russian speaking, she got so good some people even thought she was joking when she claimed not to be a native speaker. It was not just about the pronounciation and grammar, she also used many idioms and stuff when she spoke.
Now when she's been retired for quite a while, her native accent is getting noticeable again. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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