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"Perfect Pronunciation" | ||
Tags: Greek | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| The Log Groupie United Kingdom Joined 6366 days ago 57 posts - 58 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 105 of 131 09 December 2007 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I spoke to a person who claimed to have a perfect accent in French. He said that he gained this because he avoided speaking in the language completely as he felt embarrased by his language ability as he had failed to learn a langugae at school. After learning to understand to a proficient level he continued to recieve passive input until eventually he found himself thinking in the language. As he had not spoken the language himself he thought in a native accent, so he said at first when he started speaking it sounded awful but as he was thinking in a native accent his mouth quickly adapted to the sounds and within a few weeks he had a native accent.
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| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6969 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 106 of 131 10 December 2007 at 3:39am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
It is not as boring as you think. Here is what the inventor of the method Olle Kjellin says about it in this paper:
I agree with the above, when you get the feeling that you sound just like a native speaker saying the phrase it gives you a tremendous sense of accomplishment. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| trauma2020 Diglot Groupie United States Joined 6360 days ago 58 posts - 64 votes Speaks: English*, Korean | Message 107 of 131 10 December 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Aside from passive input, what other kinds of exercises are out there? Some sounds you just won't be able to pronounce right at first because it takes a while to get your mouth moving in the right ways. Do you think it would be helpful if you took a text of a few paragraphs, perhaps a news article, and sat down with a native speaker reading through it sentence by sentence while the native speaker corrects every detail, no matter how small, until you've got the material down? How long, or how many 'articles' would you estimate it would take to cover the majority of the sounds found in that language, and further, obtain the skills to apply these rules of pronunciation to your everyday speech as well? Edited by trauma2020 on 10 December 2007 at 8:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Sprachjunge Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6951 days ago 368 posts - 548 votes Speaks: English*, GermanC2 Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 108 of 131 24 November 2009 at 7:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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For what it's worth, I completely agree with Zhuangzi concerning the value of a massive amount of input. I would also like to emphasize that the amount of input necessary is often vastly underestimated by learners until they reach a certain level. I really apologize for how that sentence sounds--I promise I'm a nice guy! :) However, to share my story, it's only in year five of working with German that I can discern with certainty when my pronunciation sounds native, and when it doesn't.
Full disclosure: I started learning German when I did a year abroad after high school, living with a German family, and starting completely from scratch. My grammar/vocabulary obviously improved rapidly (although looking back over my journal entries at the end, I think that I very much overestimated how much I was understanding, especially on the radio/during news programs, and I was completely immersed in the language and working hard, so I am highly skeptical of claims of "fluency" after 1-2 years, especially if you're not living in the country or doing something extreme, but that is another post :). I also didn't study it for close to two years afterward because my major was something different for two years (math). The point is: Slucido, with much warm respect across the internets, I believe that native or extremely-close-to-native pronunciation is possible. But I think you might not be able to tell if your voice recording sounds "native" because you don't yet have a sufficient amount of aural input, and hence the tools to accurately gauge the quality of your speech. Actually, I think you mention correct estimates later (8-10 hours as a daily average of listening over months/years). So, since you recognize this: (and I know how this sounds, but it's true, in my experience) Listen attentively to enough of the target language, in enough contexts, and after a while, you will know. You will hear all sorts of quirks--precisely how long it's permissible to lengthen a vowel before it sounds weird, how hard you can roll an r, etc. But you (and not just you, let's say "one") needs a prodigious amount of samples of native speech under one's belt before that is possible. Even with the incredible bonus of living in the country where everyone around me was German for an entire year, it took me, at least, three years of active study before I acquired that ear. With that in mind, Khazumoto's (of AJATT fame) recommendations of "18-24 hours a day, including when you sleep," of the language start making complete sense--if you want to acquire that ear within 1-2 years. PS: I don't yet have near-native pronunciation (like, for instance, that lady from Madrid speaking English in a previous post. I don't care what anyone says; that is what the originator of the post meant! She is an example if you need one! :). I personally am in that annoying stage where it's just clear and grammatically clean enough that the few mistakes creeping in are viewed with annoyance, kind of like "You've gotten 90% correct, so what's wrong with the remaining 10%? Are you just being careless?" Or, at least, that's how I tend to react to non-native speakers of English at a similar level. It's a terrible cycle. :) But I am confident I can overcome them. It will take time (but hardly a lifetime). But most importantly, I can hear when it's off, so I can self-correct. Edited by Sprachjunge on 24 November 2009 at 7:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JE Newbie New Zealand Joined 5239 days ago 1 posts - 1 votes | Message 109 of 131 20 December 2009 at 4:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I am a native English speaker. I began learning "audio-visual" French when I was 12 years old. I fell in love with all things French. I eventually completed ahonours degree in French literature and travelled to France at the age of 20 for 4 months, then again for a year at the age of 23. My accent was good but I was not fluent at the beginning of my first trip. I became fluent and was mistaken by locals for a French native.
These days when I go to France it takes a couple of weeks or more to become fluent again, but it does happen. I think my success was due to my personal passion being ignited by a teacher I admired in many ways. I happen to have a musical ear which I think helped. As a language teacher I think the personal motivation of the individual student has a great influence on the results they achieve. Anything that can be done to enhance this will improve the results. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5371 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 110 of 131 20 December 2009 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I've fooled several teachers and others with my speaking ability. My accent is very good in my opinion, but I have worked fairly hard in that language to get where I am today :)
I orginally picked it up from watching TV and interviews and listening to the radio. It just sort of clicked for me, and many native speakers seem to slur everything together in a sense or maybe that's just me. After a couple hours of listening you will just have a knack to speak like a native, sounding out words like they do, and picking up the speaking "rhythm" so to speak. Best of luck!! Audio was definitely the best option for me :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5167 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 111 of 131 05 January 2012 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
(Searching for something else, I stumbled upon this thread that preceded my first visit to the forum...)
It's a bold claim, but .... I? I pass for a native speaker of English rather consistently. We spoke English together, Volte, so feel free to express your opinion on the matter, but it happens so frequently that I dare make such a bold claim before you chime in. Sprachprofi recently said that my German accent was perfect, and that I'd fool a native speaker. I have indeed passed for a German speaker before. Admittedly though, I'd have to work on the language again before I could truly fool someone in a decent conversation, because I haven't used it in a long time, but I could do it before and I think I could do it again. I've also been taken for a native speaker of Spanish on a few occasions recently (after really short conversations though), but I wouldn't dare make any claims about Spanish as I use it so rarely. A few months ago, one man thought I was pulling his leg when I said I was looking for a Spanish tutor for myself. Although my Japanese is not perfect grammar and usage wise, I've uttered longish sentences before where people have emphatically said that it sounded just like a native speaker. In time, I do aim to pass for a native speaker. Of course, passing for a native speaker requires impeccable use of the language, which takes time and dedication, but as far as accent is concerned, I would dare say that I can usually pull off a native-sounding accent. Some people have suggested that being musically talented is necessary. Perhaps I am musically talented, to a degree. However, I've had no formal musical training, and I certainly don't have perfect pitch. Actually, I have some degree of hearing loss as I can't hear below 30-50dB (depending on the frequency). I've only been wearing hearing aids for the past 3 years, so perfect hearing can’t be a factor.
-I don't do shadowing. However, I like to mimic native speakers and when I listen to or watch something, I’ll often repeat words and phrases I hear. -I do like to place myself in situations of immersion, but could only ever do it temporarily and none of my languages were ever learned in such a setting. -The words "silent period" make me feel nauseous. I speak as soon as I can. My pronunciation is usually quite accurate right from the start so I see no point in waiting. -I never received training or coaching on my pronunciation. I did however study Phonology and Phonetics, but I started learning German and English before that point. I doubt my pronunciation is any better now than it was before I had that knowledge. In short, "none of these".
The average native speaker can go from standard language to colloquial language at will depending on the situation. Since I generally want to blend it, I aim for this sort of general ability and flexibility. Given a choice though, I prefer a "standard educated" accent, but this is not necessarily appropriate in all settings. I usually opt for a type of standardized accent that can be heard in the media. I'll pick a country though. Again, control and flexibility is the goal.
No. I have to admit though that with Japanese, exposure to other accents was and is a source of confusion. The hardest part of Japanese pronunciation is pitch accent, and since it differs from region to region, it's really difficult to control and know what you are hearing and copying. But I'm confident it will sort itself out in time. So what do I do? I don't know. I don't feel like I'm impersonating, though I do mimic here and there. I don't do extensive listening, but I do observe with care. Pronunciation is not pinpoint accurate; there is always a certain degree of variation within which native speakers still think it sounds native. I try to find the limits of sounds and intonation by playing around with them and taking risks. I do a lot of self-talk. I feel that I have precise control over how I produce each sound. I can generally hear when I say something that sounds off and I can fix it on the spot. I hope some of this can help further your understanding of the issue. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5044 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 112 of 131 05 January 2012 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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There is someone on Youtube who has excellent English pronunciation. He is from Argentina
and started learning English as a teenager or maybe young adult. Sometimes I feel there is something odd about his pronunciation, but most of the time it sounds perfect to me. In any case, I think if I ran into him in the states, I would not suspect he is not a native speaker. Especially since he has flawless grammar. Here is a random video of his. Check out his channel for more. He has plenty of videos in English, and other languages as well. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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