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"Perfect Pronunciation" | ||
Tags: Greek | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 6809 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 17 of 131 01 December 2007 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Perfection in a second language (i.e. native speaker equivalence) is necessarily an elusive target, and this does not only apply to pronunciation but also to use of words and grammar.
I believe that in my French, Mandarin and Japanese and even Spanish, my pronunciation is close to native, so that a few short sentences could fool a native speaker but if I talk long enough I will be identified as non-native. I think it will be as much errors that I make in grammar or choice of words, as pronunciation that will sink me. I think that my pronunciation of German and Swedish is also pretty good, but syntactical errors are even greater. Anyone interested can check youtube for my name or go to www.thelinguist.com and listen to my cheesy videos. And I know I will get the usual number of detractors and critics, but I know very well whereof I speak. The key to good pronunciation (as opposed to the elusive native or perfect) is lots of listening, in my view. I have never bothered with the phonetic alphabet, nor with trying to pronounce individual sounds. I rely on lots of listening. I do not bother with comparing my own to the native speaker until I have had many many months of listening. I do not shadow, although I do occasional repeat phrases that are still running around in my brain. I really do not want my own, still crude pronunciation to interfere with what I am trying to internalize. Eventually I start to speak, and the pronunciation continues to improve, as my general familiarity with the language improves. Of course I have an easier time than most with new languages, since I have already learned quite a few languages and therefore accumulated a familiarity with a range of sounds. I am not in any sense musical. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6456 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 18 of 131 01 December 2007 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Music talent isn't the skill for a perfect native accent. The best talented artists are professional impersonators. They are very good faking foreign accents with no idea of the language. Use their techniques.
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| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 6809 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 19 of 131 01 December 2007 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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slucido is right. When speaking a foreign language you are playing a new role, acting, and even pretending to be something you are not.. You have to get into the personality and imitate the behaviour of someone of a different culture. The lighter you are culturally, the smaller your own cultural ego, the easier it is to imitate someone of a different culture.
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| sunny Groupie United States Joined 6029 days ago 98 posts - 128 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Welsh, French | Message 20 of 131 01 December 2007 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I have to second the idea that passing for a native in another language is an act of impersonation.
I started impersonating different accents as a child. In Middle school my French teacher remarked on my perfect pronunciation. When I went to Germany in July at level A2 in my German, what I was able to say to people led them to believe that 1) I wasn't as bad at German as I said I was, or 2) that I was a native. Even passport control seemed very surprised that I was American. As an American English speaker, I have found that the way one has to hold the internal muscles in one's mouth differs between the different groups of languages. In fact I'd say that even the British are more closely related to German speakers in that regard that they are to Americans. I have an American friend who has lived in Europe for 17 years and while his German is perfect as far as grammar, he still sounds like an American speaking German. I found it VERY difficult to transition from speaking German, to speaking American English, but not nearly as difficult transitioning to British English. The first task in mastering a language in my mind is to master the use of the different muscles, the different way of holding the tongue, and consistent production of the unique sounds that each language has. This makes it more of a challenge right off, but if one wants to sound like a native, then that is what needs to be done right away so one doesn't learn bad habits. That is what is taking me a bit of time with my Russian: I am working on being able to replicate the sounds in the language as consistently as possible, first. I use music to do this. I spend a lot of time singing along to cds in the car. I hope this is helpful. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| glossa.passion Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6102 days ago 267 posts - 349 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, EnglishC1, Danish Studies: Spanish, Dutch | Message 21 of 131 02 December 2007 at 8:46am | IP Logged | |||||
I've recently read in a foreword of a book, that a languagelearner should strive for 100 % pronounciation, 50 % grammar and 1 % vocabulary of a new language. Since I've read that, I reconsider my ways of language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6053 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 22 of 131 02 December 2007 at 9:44am | IP Logged | |||||
I don't agree with that. It sounds like a recipe for perfect elocution in a foreign language, some grasp of the grammar and being able to say, read and understand practically nothing. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 6809 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 23 of 131 02 December 2007 at 11:24am | IP Logged | |||||
This subject could be a new thread. Strive 100% for comprehension, in listening and reading. In doing so you will need to focus mostly on vocabulary, to a much lesser extent on grammar and not at all on pronunciation. Once you understand what you hear, once you have converted indiscriminate sounds into words and meaning, you will have trained the brain to become familiar with the language.Then you can start working on pronunciation. Without words you can neither understand nor speak. To me the simplest measurement of how you are doing in a language is the number of words you know, as long as they are acquired through listening and reading. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6484 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 131 02 December 2007 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
If I had read that in the foreword of a book I would have expected the rest to be just as absurd and thrown the whole thing into the dustbin. You need some measure of equilibrium where people can understand what you say AND you have something to say even while you are learning the language, - and to fool the true natives even the most perfect pronunciation wouldn't save you if the rest of your skills were mediocre or non-existant. Edited by Iversen on 02 December 2007 at 12:24pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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