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ʐ in żona / rzeka contrast?

  Tags: Polish | Pronunciation
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Volte
Tetraglot
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 Message 1 of 14
08 February 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged 
I'm attempting to study Polish Phonology via the wikipedia page on Polish Phonology. ż / rz are both indicated as being pronounced ʐ (IPA for a voiced retroflex fricative similar to z).

Is the 'r' forming a digraph with the z to show that it's not the 'z' of dz (IPA /d͡z/) or the z of ź / z(i) (IPA /ʑ/), but rather, the same 'z' of ż -- basically, as a purely orthographic device, with rz and ż being two ways of spelling the same sound? Or is there some sort of 'r' sound to it that I'm not managing to hear correctly?

Links to the sound files I'm using: rz and ż.

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Kubelek
Tetraglot
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 Message 2 of 14
08 February 2008 at 8:56am | IP Logged 
you got it right, there's no difference in pronunciation of these two.

same with:
h-ch
dź-dzi
ci-ć
si-ś


I wanted to add ni-ń as well but when i thought about it "słońce" and "słonice" would be pronounced differently. So careful with that one

Edited by Kubelek on 08 February 2008 at 8:58am

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atamagaii
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 Message 3 of 14
08 February 2008 at 8:58am | IP Logged 
rz and ż are the same sound.

They are voiced in rzeka, żona, marzenie, marża, brzeg, grzyb etc, that is between vowels, at the beginning of a word and after a voiced consonant.

After a voiceless consonant and at the end of a word they are voiceless and pronounced like sz. krzak, przykry, kurz.
The same happens with all voiced consonants.

rz can be pronounced seprately r-z only in a few words, eg marznąć - m a r z n ą ć




Edited by atamagaii on 08 February 2008 at 8:59am

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Kubelek
Tetraglot
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 Message 4 of 14
08 February 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged 
atamagaii please correct me if I'm wrong, I never studied this aspect of our phonology consciously.
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Volte
Tetraglot
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 Message 5 of 14
08 February 2008 at 9:04am | IP Logged 
Kubelek wrote:
you got it right, there's no difference in pronunciation of these two.

same with:
h-ch
dź-dzi
ci-ć
si-ś


careful with dz though, it is a different sound.


Ok, great, thank you. Ironically enough, I'm working with dz right now - I'd originally thought I was doing it decently, but at this point, I've realized that I need to work more on contrasting the alveolar/retroflex/palatal consonants, and on releasing stops into affricatives, so I'm studying dzwon / dźwięk / dżem for the d + 3 different 'z' sounds contrast, along with żona / dżem for whether or not to start the sound with a stop before the fricative.


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atamagaii
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 Message 6 of 14
08 February 2008 at 9:14am | IP Logged 
dz, dż, dź are three different sounds, to an English speaker they sound the same, like j in John.

In dżonka, dżudo, dżungla dż is one sound, in dżem, they are two sounds: d-żem (like drz in drzewo), though plenty of Poles pronounce it like one sound, similar to English jam.


Edited by atamagaii on 08 February 2008 at 9:15am

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atamagaii
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 Message 7 of 14
08 February 2008 at 9:22am | IP Logged 
Listen to plenty of texts and try to repeat only after you've been able to hear all the sounds.
Studying phonetics without listening to texts is a waste of time.
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Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
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 Message 8 of 14
08 February 2008 at 9:26am | IP Logged 
atamagaii wrote:
dz, dż, dź are three different sounds, to an English speaker they sound the same, like j in John.

In dżonka, dżudo, dżungla dż is one sound, in dżem, they are two sounds: d-żem (like drz in drzewo), though plenty of Poles pronounce it like one sound, similar to English jam.


All three sound distinct to me. However, I can't -consistently- produce them one after another (if I'm just repeating one sound file, it's much easier), and I'm not entirely confident that I can consistently differentiate them at a natural speed while listening (I'm checking now).

The 'dzem' on wikipedia sounds like only one sound to me (while Dzwon sounds like two, and Dzwiek sounds like a stop releasing into an affricative, which is something I'm sufficiently unused to that I can't really label it one sound or two).



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