Language Learning Forum: Shameful English Grammar Questions!

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Shameful English Grammar Questions!

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Forum Name: Questions About Your Target Languages
Forum Discription: Where you can ask practical self-study questions about a specific problem in your target language.
URL: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13551
Printed Date: 2021 13 May at 2:50am

Posted By: delectric
Subject: Shameful English Grammar Questions!
Date Posted: 2009 12 January at 1:02am

Thought I need to start a post about my terrible grammar. Considering i'm a native speaker I feel pretty ashamed to ask some of these questions but you know what if I never ask i'll never know.

Which sentence is correct?

Do the man and the boy have apples?

Does the man and the boy have apples?

I'm not sure if you would modify the sentence by placing the man and the boy together (they) or would you take them one at a time (he/she)

When used as a verb is there really a big difference between these two words?

Affect (v)

Effect (n/v)

Replies:

The first apple related sentence is correct...
I'm not sure about the difference between affect/effect. I know an "effect" is a noun, "to affect" is a verb and "affected" is an adjective. I'd be interested to see an answer to this myself.
And it's not shameful to seek grammar advice for your own language: no one can claim to speak perfect English!
40pancakes on 2009 12 January

I would say that DOES.... is right. The "Do" sentence sounds gramatically correct but not correct, if you catch my drift. Perhaps it's just dialect/accent.

TEL
TheElvenLord on 2009 12 January

TheElvenLord, I thought this too. I think a lot of native speakers would use does. But from a text book point of view is this correct.
delectric on 2009 12 January

delectric wrote:

No need to be ashamed. The reason that you can't work out which one is correct is that... (drum roll please)... neither one of them if real English.

It would be the first, becaues "the man and the boy" = "they".

But no English speaker would say this, so there's no pattern in your head that feels natural.

Think "John and Sally do it every night." Now that's a fairly natural sentence. However, a phrase like "the man and the boy" is too clumsy to be of any use, and besides, what would it mean? We wouldn't ask a question like yours without knowing who we're talking about, and once we know who we're talking about, we say "they".

So fret ye not -- where you are really stuck about whether something is proper English or not, it's normally not, even if the grammar books can't explicitly tell you so!

Quote:

When used as a verb is there really a big difference between these two words?

Affect (v)

Effect (n/v)

When in doubt, ask Oxford! (.com)

AskOxford.com wrote:

To affect something is to change or influence it, To effect something is a rather formal way of saying `to make it happen'. Confusingly, either may produce an 'effect' or result. ('An affect' is a technical term in psychology.)
The stability of the wall was affected by passing lorries.
The demolition of the wall was effected by the detonation of a charge of dynamite.

The dynamite did not just 'affect' (influence) the demolition of the wall: it caused it.

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/aff ect?view=uk - http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/aff ect?view=uk
Cainntear on 2009 12 January

delectric wrote:

The first sentence is the correct one because "the man and the boy" is a plural subject. However the first sounds natural enough to me just because "Does the Man..." sounds right. In a conversation, if I heard someone say the second sentence, I wouldn't even catch their mistake.

Vai wrote:

The first one -- "do" -- is correct because the subject is plural. Two people are named, whereas "does the group have apples?" is still a singular noun despite the lexical meanin of 'group.'

As verbs, 'affect' simply means to evoke a reaction or change something, while 'effect' means to accomplish or produce something, like 'effecting' a new law.

As nouns, 'affect' can mean someone's attitude or frame of mind, while, somewhat counterintuitively, 'effect' is the aforementioned cause or reaction: 'the effect was mesmerizing.' It can also mean personal belongings: "The deceased man's effects will be auctioned."

Note: This is just from my experience as a reader -- there is always the possibility that consulting a grammar book could prove me wrong

I've always thought of them as affect=verb, effect=noun. Example. The new law will affect many people. The effect of the law is unknown.

RedRabbit on 2009 12 January

RedRabbit wrote:

I've always thought of them as affect=verb, effect=noun. Example. The new law will affect many people. The effect of the law is unknown.

But there is a noun and a verb in each form....
Cainntear on 2009 12 January

Does/do ties into a difference of the treatment of plural nouns between North America (and, judging by this thread, Australia - I wouldn't know) and the UK; it's a regional difference.

I'm not touching effect/affect, but it's been discussed to death in a lot of places, including this forum.

Volte on 2009 12 January

About "effect" and "affect," I found this:

Quote:

1. If you are talking about a result, then use the word "effect."

    * Example: What effect did the loss have on the team?

2. It is appropriate to use the word "effect" if one of these words is used immediately before the word: into, no, take, the, any, an, or and.

    * Example: The prescribed medication had no effect on the patient's symptoms.
    * Example: In analyzing a situation, it is important to take the concepts of cause and effect into consideration.

3. If you want to describe something that was caused or brought about, the right word to use is effect.

    * Example: The new manager effected some positive changes in the office. (This means that the new manager caused some positive changes to take place in the office.)

4. Affect can be used as a noun to describe facial expression.

    * Example: The young man with schizophrenia had a flat affect.
    * Example: The woman took the news of her husband's sudden death with little affect.

5. Affect can also be used as a verb. Use it when trying to describe influencing someone or something rather than causing it.

    * Example: How does the crime rate affect hiring levels by local police forces?
    * Example: The weather conditions will affect the number of people who come to the county fair this year.

Source: http://www.yourdictionary.com/grammar-rules/affect-effect-gr ammar.html
Britomartis on 2009 12 January

The verb "affect" also has a number of other meanings, besides "influence", which is the meaning that tends to get mixed up with the verb "effect".

according to wwwebster:
transitive verb
1 archaic : to aim at
2 a archaic : to have affection for
_ b: to be given to : fancy <affect flashy clothes>
3: to make a display of liking or using : cultivate <affect a worldly manner>
4: to put on a pretense of : feign <affect indifference, though deeply hurt>
5: to tend toward <drops of water affect roundness>
6: frequent
intransitive verb
obsolete : incline
synonyms see assume
Hencke on 2009 12 January

Cainntear wrote:

[QUOTE=delectric]
No need to be ashamed. The reason that you can't work out which one is correct is that... (drum roll please)... neither one of them if real English.

It would be the first, becaues "the man and the boy" = "they".

But no English speaker would say this, so there's no pattern in your head that feels natural.

why is this not real English? i'm a native English speaker, and you would use "do". "does" just doesn't sound right.
LittleKey on 2009 12 January

LittleKey wrote:

why is this not real English? i'm a native English speaker, and you would use "do". "does" just doesn't sound right.

It's not about whether you would use "do" or "does", it's about whether you would say the sentence at all. Given the choice between the two, I would chose "do" -- it is grammatically correct as it follows rules and conventions. However, I'd never say a sentence like this -- we just don't tend to make up compound subjects like this. "John and Sally", yes; "the man and the boy", no.

And we don't need to:
by the time the question is asked, we know who the man and the boy are (if we're using the definite article then we are already assuming we know who they are) -- and if we know who we're talking about, we call them "they".

So again, as I said, this sentence is so unlikely to be said that it isn't really English.

This isn't just a problem with this particular example -- books for learners of any language contain sentences just as unlikely. I remember having to get my class to say things like "a nurse is standing by the bed". Now this appears grammatically correct, considering all the rules, but the real English is "there's a nurse standing by the bed".

Real English is what people say, not anything that can be generated using an (incomplete) grammar book and dictionary.

(EDIT: I wish there was more consistency over the use of BBCode and HTML on webforums. I'm forever using the wrong one....)
Cainntear on 2009 13 January

Cainntear wrote:

LittleKey wrote:

why is this not real English? i'm a native English speaker, and you would use "do". "does" just doesn't sound right.

It's not about whether you would use "do" or "does", it's about whether you would say the sentence at all. Given the choice between the two, I would chose "do" -- it is grammatically correct as it follows rules and conventions. However, I'd never say a sentence like this -- we just don't tend to make up compound subjects like this. "John and Sally", yes; "the man and the boy", no.

And we don't need to:
by the time the question is asked, we know who the man and the boy are (if we're using the definite article then we are already assuming we know who they are) -- and if we know who we're talking about, we call them "they".

So again, as I said, this sentence is so unlikely to be said that it isn't really English.

This isn't just a problem with this particular example -- books for learners of <i>any</i> language contain sentences just as unlikely. I remember having to get my class to say things like "a nurse is standing by the bed". Now this appears grammatically correct, considering all the rules, the <i>real</i> English is "there's a nurse standing by the bed".

Real English is what people say, not anything that can be generated using an (incomplete) grammar book and dictionary.

This is actually a really interesting point! I completely agree with the previous poster that "do" sounds much more natural, as well as being grammatically correct, and was about to reply to that effect, but I see you are making a different point. It is indeed a pretty contrived question - and I wish language teaching methods would take this into account.
The nurse example is good too - food for thought!

ofdw on 2009 13 January

The beauty of having learnt English as a foreign language is that you've done hundreds of exercises exactly like this one.

To me (non-native) this was a no-brainer. :-)

****************************************************
Please insert "do" or "does" as appropriate:

_____the man and the boy have apples?

****************************************************

cordelia0507 on 2009 14 January

cordelia0507 wrote:

Do
Monox D. I-Fly on 2017 17 September

The verb "to do" in English:

Present Indicative
I do
You do
He/she/it/one does
We do
You do
They do

Speakeasy on 2017 19 September

My personal rule of thumb:
"Does" is only for third singular pronoun, Other than that, use "do".
Monox D. I-Fly on 2017 19 September

There's nothing shameful in asking about grammar and correct usage of vocabulary.

Both the words "effect" and "affect" are nouns.

If you're confused, you could just plug in the sentence in any grammar tool to see what's
right. I use this https://www.123helpme.com/writing-tool/edit - writing tool
from 123HelpMe and Grammarly.

Effect is used when you're describing an impact on something.(result of a change)
Affect means to influence or to produce a change in something. (Making a change)

KConn on 2018 10 January