Going from fluent towards near native
Printed From: How-to-learn-any-language.com
Forum Name: Lessons in Polyglottery
Forum Discription: Interact with Dr. Alexander Arguelles (formerly known as Ardaschir).
URL: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29287
Printed Date: 16 June 2021 at 3:05pm
Posted By: Zwlth
Subject: Going from fluent towards near native
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 7:59am
I doubt there is anyone who wouldn't like to have near native abilities in his or her foreign languages. But, although those of us who belong here in lessons in polyglottery may be adept at getting pretty good, pretty fast, pretty efficiently in a given foreign language, what, if anything, can we do to push ourselves towards that ever elusive final goal?
First, some sobering points to keep in mind for the sake of perspective:
1. Developing near native abilities almost always requires years of living in a culture, generally early in life. Perhaps in our increasingly globalized world it may become increasingly possible to find personal or professional linguistic bubbles (marrying into a language or working in an environment that uses it) that no longer make it a sine qua non to move abroad. Nonetheless, the effective need for years of protracted total immersion obviously remains. And, while language enthusiasts can do a lot on their own, this is not something that it is always possible to arrange, even with the best of will.
2. Even if you do emigrate to another language environment for life, there is no guarantee that you will ever develop near native abilities in it. In fact, most immigrants never do, despite decades of immersion and countless quantities of comprehensible input. So, it is clearly a general truth that the great majority of foreign language learners reach a permanent plateau that is quite short of near native.
3. Even if you do manage to make continued progress, it must come at a cost of thousands of hours of active effort. Looking at FSI-type charts, there seems to be a "twice again all over" rule of thumb in order to progress from any one measurable level to another.
4. Even if you do make this continued progress, you will be fighting against a law of diminishing returns. That is, you will be fine tuning many points of minutiae that collectively make a difference, but that are individually imperceptible and, for most people, fluent is quite good enough.
All that said, are there any techniques that those of us who are already quite advanced in a language can use so as to continue advancing more and more? Obviously, we ought to seek out as many opportunities for use as we possibly can. But, I refer here not so much to means of interacting with speakers of the language, as to things that we can do on our own, in private, to interact with the language itself. Here are the two that I know and use and that I credit with bringing me closer to this goal than anyone of my personal acquaintance:
1. The first is polyliteracy as I have been promoting it here recently, or at very least, the main idea behind it, i.e., extensive reading of rich texts over protracted periods of time. While I'm not sure what, if anything, one can consciously and deliberately do to approach native accent, accuracy, use of idioms, or many other features of foreign language mastery, it does seem obvious to me that by means of reading great quantities of high quality, lexically fecund material one ought to be able to develop a vocabulary range equal to or even exceeding that of native speakers who do not read as extensively.
2. The second is to make a conscious effort to control the selection of the language you think in. Turn off English or whatever your native language automatic default system is and deliberately use a different operating system. Doing this actually grows most easily out of practicing polyliteracy: when you've been reading a book (or listening to an audiobook), it is quite natural to stay thinking in the language for a while after you close the cover (or turn it off). So, just make a deliberate resolve to prolong this, and to switch yourself back to it if you find that you have reverted to automatic. After a while, this becomes quite natural. Of course, this is no substitute for getting maximal amounts of interactive input, but when you do not have that opportunity, this is a good means of building many hours of language use into your day.
Could others please share what they do on their own to engage their languages in order to try to advance even further once they are already advanced?
One last thing: please, please, please, let us keep this thread on track! Let's only discuss specific individual techniques for moving on beyond fluent towards native, not general means of exercising our languages. Let's not go off on tangents about what "fluent" and "near native" mean, and let's not tell anecdotes about exceptional individuals who have attained extraordinary results in record time. Let's make a collective effort to share what "normal polyglots" (is there such a thing?) can do to keep making their skills better and better when they are already quite good.
|
Replies:
I share your idea of this thread. Thanks for opening such a wonderful topic.
In my instance, English is the language that I really love to push it towards "near native" level.
During the learning process till now, I'd feel, from time to time, that my English has stopped advancing. And in those times, I did feel quite bad. But fortunately, I felt, in most of those times, even more empowered and determined to break through the plateau. So I usually started my own projects to review or enhance my vocabulary or pronunciation or grammar.
My main weakness right now is probably vocabulary, especially terminology of fields which I didn't learn in English such as Chemistry, Physics, etc.
From my personal experience, I completely agree that read, read and read more is the way to go. Besides, watching films, listening to radios and talking to people have also helped me a lot.
At the end of the day, what I think is really behind my progress is that I continue to be interested and passionate about learning English. I'd feel very glad to come across an interesting word or idiom or a useful construct.
The other factor that keeps me going is that in recent years, I've been doing my thought reasoning totally in English, which creates a need to learn more vocabulary so that I'd be able to express my thoughts precisely. And I'm a huge fan of clear and accurate expressions.
And last but not least, I figure it does help that I've always believed that the day would come when I would "make it": truly reaching a high-level of fluency or "near native" in English.
learnvietnamese on 02 September 2011
|
I think part of the problem is that as we want to talk about how to pursue native
ability the issue itself becomes harder to articulate. It's fair enough to say that a
learner who hasn't learned all the conjugations yet has a particular piece missing in
his knowledge, but what is it that you can measure that would tell you that a learner
is fluent but not native? It's hard for me to narrow it down to any particular thing
(or things), I mean you can just as well learn lots of new words but that doesn't in
itself make up the difference. What is it that comes to mind when you judge someone to
have native ability? Somehow it is the sense that you understand each other really
well, this I-can't-explain-how-but.. I think that is a sense of shared culture.
Anyhow, to more practical things. I have been putting all my eggs in the "polyliteracy"
basket lately (nice that there is a word for it). I started from a literature guide and
decided I would try to read all the important books in Italian 20th century literature
(let's say around 50 to ball park it). I'm about 80% underway and occasionally I also
read older classics. Unless I find a better strategy, I will probably try to complete
some manner of comprehensive reading throughout Italian literature starting with Dante.
Let's say perhaps 100-120 books in all (I'm sticking to prose because I don't like
poetry). This might take another 2-3 years.
Now, if anything is a good test of polyliteracy this is, and I will report on my
results.
Literature is one strategy. Another is non-fiction. In Dutch (which is very far behind
my Italian) I have opted for a different plan. I started from an introduction to
philosophy. Then I read half a dozen books about contemporary philosophy and I plan to
stick with this topic for a while still. It has a quite different feel to it, because
most of the books are translations and the cultural content is much lower. But the
language is more technical, more functional, and it's good training for understanding
the presentation of complex ideas.
So there, I have zero answers but I invite you all to critique my strategies. I realize
this is not a well rounded plan, but it is an aggressive attack on the enemy (my lack
of language skills). It accounts for probably 80% of my activity.
numerodix on 02 September 2011
|
[Background and disclaimer: I claim to speak English at a near-native level. I know it’s a very strong statement to be making, and as a linguist, I fully understand the implications, but I wanted to convey my experience in the matter. I’m not claiming absolute perfection, as I do sometimes catch myself sounding odd and I correct myself (though we all do that in our first language, too), but it’s common for native speakers to tell me they thought I was native whenever I tell them I’m not, and when people do notice an accent, it’s usually because they think I come from another part of the country. S_allard has mentioned many times before that native speakers usually learn language from one single place; consequently, as a non-native speaker, my sources of language were varied and I feel no attachment to one particular accent. I’m married to a native speaker and she claims I always sound like a native whenever I downplay my ability (such as before non-natives who can’t judge my accent). I believe I had already reached near-native level when I met her, so I wouldn’t credit living with a native as a defining factor.]
If a person wishes to reach near-native level, I think it’s fair to assume that they have a strong, unrestricted desire to speak like a native and pass off as one. If you don’t, you will fail.
But above all, I think strong critical and analytical skills are essential. Yet, I’m not sure these can be acquired.
I used to think that if anyone was going to reach near-native level, they’d have to aim for perfection (or excellence) right from the start. If you don’t, there will be so much to correct later on that it would be overwhelming and it would delay everything beyond a reachable timeframe. More and more, however, I think that aiming for perfection is not a condition, but rather a symptom: if aiming for perfection is not your goal instinctively, then perhaps you are missing the skills needed for the job. If you aren’t already critical of how you speak, you perhaps never will be.
When I teach pronunciation, my students are often astonished when they realize that natives don’t pronounce things the same way they do, even when they are very common phrases like “I didn’t even go” or “I want to go” or “I shouldn’t have bought it”, etc. Somehow, the average learner starts to say things one way, and never questions it again, even when they’ve been hearing it for years. Anyone who is going to reach near-native level will need the ability to question what they say against what they hear, and they will need the desire and ability to work at fixing any discrepancy. They will need to be flexible enough to alter their habits and create new automatic ways of speaking.
I don’t think vocabulary is a significant part of the equation. To sound like a native, you will need perfect grammar and perfect pronunciation. The first step is to be able to achieve this on a small scale; the next step is to do it all at once, (almost) all the time. You claim that self-talk (you say “think in the language”, but I see that more or less as the same thing in practice) is less effective than interactive input, but I disagree. Perfect flow in a foreign language requires perfect, split-second linguistic planning that the brain can only achieve through practice. Not random practice in live situations, but targeted practice through preparation and repetition BEFORE using it in live situations. I think you are right about diminishing returns: eventually, if you aim to sound like an educated native speaker, your progress will depend on your ability to place yourself in the most challenging situations, possibly academic circles, speech contests, presentations, debates, teaching, etc.
I disagree with the importance of polyliteracy for a few reasons. First of all, the average native speaker doesn’t necessarily have a very educated knowledge of the language. Second, a lot of people have perfect English grammar, but still fail to convince anyone when they speak. The bottleneck is pronunciation, not grammar (although to be clear, both are necessary), and certainly not vocabulary (at least not for an advanced speaker who already has all he needs). It’s also quite possible to read incredibly varied texts and never actually transfer that information to your active production – and it’s perfection in production that is harder to achieve, not in understanding. Lastly, I reached near-native level in English without ever being much of a reader: although I did write a lot, I never read to the extent you advocate. I did read critically when I did, though. Still, I always preferred intellectual debates or scientific talks, and I believe all you need is accessible right there. I’d agree that supplementing that with various types of written materials is a good idea, though.
Arekkusu on 02 September 2011
|
I hope I didn't kill the thread... :S
Arekkusu on 06 September 2011
|
Arekkusu wrote:
| I hope I didn't kill the thread... :S |
|
|
You didn't kill it, but you did show how thankfully seriously respondents are taking my call to stick to the task at hand. Your answer - that of a Québécois with English in Canada - together with Kuikentje's - that of a Walloon with Dutch in Belgium - truly highlight the fact that full and total immersion is key in attaining this goal. What I had in mind, though, was not this, but rather what those of us who are not in such favorable circumstances can do to continue progressing even after we have perhaps passed tests telling us we are at the highest measurable levels. It may be pure folly to attempt this under those circumstances, particularly in multiple languages, but there it is - written by a confirmed fool. So, I'd be more curious to know what someone with your obvious linguistic background and talent is doing for his Spanish, German, or Japanese than for his English.
As to your point about being able to get by developing an extensive English vocabulary without doing much reading, I think that holds true for someone with your Francophone background as there are so many cognates and loan words, but (as the Professor's recent video highlighted) this is not at all the case for someone with a Chinese or other such alien origin.
Zwlth on 11 September 2011
|
Arekkusu wrote:
If a person wishes to reach near-native level, I think it’s fair to assume that they have a strong,
unrestricted desire to speak like a native and pass off as one. If you don’t, you will fail. |
|
|
Are you including kids here? I suppose they have a strong desire, but may be less premeditated than adults. I've met
a lot of French Canadians, but only one who could pass as a native English speaker. He learned English before the
age of 10.
leosmith on 11 September 2011
|
At the risk of going against the wishes of the OP I must agree with leosmith on this one. Only the exceptional few will be likely to go from fluent to native-like unless they were immersed from childhood.
I know people who have lived in Norway more than 20 years, and even people who are married to Norwegians and have Norwegian kids, and the only one I ever met who I would consider native, is a Hungarian who arrived at age 4. My other Hungarian friend who arrived at 13 speaks better Norwegian than most Norwegians, but he will still occasionally mess up the genders, something a native Norwegian would never do. And Norwegian is a fairly simple language, I would think it would be even more difficult if we are talking about a really difficult language.
Solfrid Cristin on 11 September 2011
|
I don't think the OP's post really had anything to do with the question "Is near-native knowledge of a language even possible?" We all have our opinions on that. I, for one, believe it is possible. But that's more something I *choose* to believe, for one specific purpose: the purpose of motivating myself to keep learning. Whether or not I will ever fool Germans into thinking I'm one of them for an extended period (and I'm definitely FAR from that now!), I choose to work towards that goal in order to motivate myself and make my path clearer.
Now, to the techniques: I majored in German Studies, for which I had to read a lot of varying types of German (and D-A-CH) literature: Goethe, Heine, Schiller, Hölderlin, Eichendorff, Büchner, Frisch, Droste-Hülshoff, Keller, Mörike, Lessing, Brecht, Kafka, Haushofer, etc. I watched and listened to the music of German operas during some of my classes. I also took a course in "Minnesang", courtly-love/minstrel poetry, reading it in both modern and Middle High German. Later I took a modern German-film class, including films by Turkish-German directors such as Fatih Akin. For years I've been listening to German pop-rock music from the sixties until now and learning German idioms and quotations from friends and books, and recently I started watching German TV and reading "Krimis" (crime novels). Every time I hear a cultural reference to something German I don't yet understand, I go online and look it up.
As you can tell from the above paragraph, cultural literacy is, in my opinion, the difference between merely "fluent" and "near-native". You have to be able to share references with people. Just today, while chatting with my new German flatmates, I sang along with a silly song about a rubber duck – "Quietscheentchen, nur mit dir...", agreed that Tatort Münster is the best of all the Tatort series, and laughed in amazement at how well one of my friends could imitate the voices of Klaus Kinski and Udo Lindenberg. Now, I'm not claiming anyone would mistake me for a native, yet! But focusing on these things is what quickly brings you into a culture and a language, in my opinion.
To continue this as intensively as possible, I'm basically doing two things: constantly asking questions of German people (I don't care if I sound like a toddler: "Why does it rain? What's a cloud? Where's the moon?"), and hungrily taking in every type of German media I can get my hands on: highbrow literature, lowbrow thriller novels, cheesy soap operas, news websites, films of every description, music of every German-language artist I can find, etc. In fact, I don't only stick to German-language musicians: recently I discovered a list of the top 100 hit songs of all time on the German charts, and I made it my goal to go through the whole list and listen to them all. Because, you know, this is what Germans have grown up with. It's the most effective way I can think of to regain the lost German childhood I never had.
So, in a nutshell: after reaching a level of advanced linguistic knowledge, I believe the most effective way to proceed towards near-native knowledge is to become familiar with as many cultural references as possible.
Jinx on 11 September 2011
|
Jinx wrote:
| So, in a nutshell: after reaching a level of advanced linguistic knowledge, I believe the most effective way to proceed towards near-native knowledge is to become familiar with as many cultural references as possible. |
|
|
I couldn't agree more. Indeed, I even agree fully about the necessity for a full range of the lowest-brow knowledge. Some years ago, while already in my late 20's, I got to spend a few years living in France. Towards the end of that time, based on my accent and grammar, people tended to assume that I was one of them from another region of the country. On occasion, when they asked if I was from X, it was tempting to say yes. However, I always found that terribly nerve-wracking, for I would have had no idea of what to say if someone had said they were also from there - what street did I live on when I was a boy, what school did I go to, what was my favorite TV show, did I remember the jingle from such and such a commercial, etc.
Segmental and suprasegmental aspects of articulation and natural and flawless conversational grammar are in the most literal sense superficial, that is, they are on the surface and will make the first impression. However, it is cultural knowledge, most broadly understood, that really brings you into the spirit of a language.
Think of all the Battle of the Bulge type WWII movies when the soldiers, realizing that they have been infiltrated by Germans in American uniforms, begin asking each other trick questions about baseball in an effort to find out who is a real Joe.
Zwlth on 11 September 2011
|
In an attempt to define near-native fluency, I would like to mention following possible categories for language-related skills: phonology; grammar, phraseology and vocabulary; register and cultural competence.
These categories are not exclusive; especially register knowledge often refers to other categories as well.
Near-native phonology covers understanding target language phonology including word contraction, emphasis, stage accents etc. present in the standard language and the sound changes in different dialects and accents as well as the ability to produce a consistent, natural accent in the dialect one chose to learn.
Thanks to modern media, it often is possible to study and emulate a lot of different target language media to develop a good model of the target language's phonology; reading doesn't particularly help with this skill. Techniques that involve imitating native speakers as closely as possible are my tool of choice for pronunciation, but I believe that to reach outstanding results, it is necessary to become part of a group of native speakers and interact with them on a regular basis.
Grammar, phraseology and vocabulary are self-explanatory. To develop my written register, extensively reading many different kinds of written sources is the tool of choice; alongside with translation, memorization and writing for different purposes; for the spoken register it sould be the same with extensive listening and speaking in many different situation. As the other methods mentioned so far, this isn't any different from what I do at any stage in my language acquisition, the main difference is that I focus on register rather than meaning.
Which leads to the last category; register and cultural competence. Apart from becoming an active member in target language communities, or alongside with that, I find it important to work with many different kinds of material, search for many different kinds of situations where one has to use the target language and always pay attention to the setting, relationships and level of speech; to the things that are said and the ones that are left unsaid; to non-verbal communication and different communication styles and skills. It is also important to learn a lot of factual information about the target language's cultures and subcultures combined with personal accounts of the same; as well are cultural rituals and expected behaviour in different situations. Typical experiences in the different stages of life, especially childhood and youth are of interest; as well as learning to understand any kind of humour. In the end, one should be able to develop a target language identity that can act appropriately in many different situations and adapt to any new one.
In spite of boldly stating my methods, I am still far from reaching near-native fluency in my active skills even in English, which is mainly due to a lack of concentrated effort. (Well, actually motivation.)
Bao on 12 September 2011
|
Zwlth wrote:
| Your answer - that of a Québécois with English in Canada - together with Kuikentje's - that of a Walloon with Dutch in Belgium - truly highlight the fact that full and total immersion is key in attaining this goal. |
|
|
Although I get your point, that is somewhat of a simplistic view -- bilingual countries are not bilingual everywhere. They are mostly made up on monolingual parts speaking different languages. I grew up in a town that was/is 98.5% French-speaking; I can't speak for Kuikentje though. I did however eventually immerse myself when I went to an English-speaking university. Then again, I wasn't the only one from my hometown to attend that same university and everyone's English level varied. As other's have already said, the right conditions don't work for everyone, and the set of conditions that could be considered ideal would vary depending on how distant the L1 and L2 are. I suppose I was lucky that French and English are so closely related.
Arekkusu on 12 September 2011
|
Arekkusu wrote:
| Although I get your point, that is somewhat of a simplistic view -- bilingual countries are not bilingual everywhere. They are mostly made up on monolingual parts speaking different languages... ...I suppose I was lucky that French and English are so closely related. |
|
|
My point was merely that it is infintely easier for you to immerse yourself when you can stay in your own country to do it, as moving abroad is a much more complicated legal and logistic process.
I certainly agree that the task is much easier with closely related languages, which is why I ask again if you, with your professional linguitic background, have any strategies for ever improving your Japanese that you could share?
Again, as was stressed above, what I am looking for is ways to continue improving when you are already very advanced. Unless you want to be a spy, it is not necessary to convince people by the way you talk that you were born somewhere other than where you really were born. What I think is much more interesting and much more admirable is to develop your linguistic skills to the point where your cultural knowledge can equal or indeed even excel that of many native speakers.
Zwlth on 13 September 2011
|
Zwlth wrote:
I certainly agree that the task is much easier with closely related languages, which is why I ask again if you, with your professional linguitic
background, have any strategies for ever improving your Japanese that you could share? |
|
|
I've spent a fair amount of time explaining my strategy on this forum, including on my own log where I go into a fair bit of detail about my acquisition of
Japanese.
To be blunt, the likelihood that I would reach a near-native level in Japanese in the near-future is very slim and it would be foolish to claim otherwise; there
are still too many things that I need to work on. But I remain optimistic for the longer run. My main obstacles at this point are that I'm 37 years old with a
full-time job and family obligations, and that I can't access the language as much as I'd like. However, I don't feel that I'm any weaker a learner then I was
20 years ago.
When I learned English, I had lots of time to devote to the task, and learning English takes a quarter of the time it takes to learn Japanese, so this task will
inevitably take a lot longer. That being said, reaching a near-native level in Japanese continues to be my long-term goal. It's a work in progress.
Arekkusu on 13 September 2011
|
Jinx wrote:
I don't think the OP's post really had
anything to do with the question "Is near-native
knowledge of a language even possible?" We all have
our opinions on that. I, for one, believe it is
possible. But that's more something I *choose* to
believe, for one specific purpose: the purpose of
motivating myself to keep learning. Whether or not I
will ever fool Germans into thinking I'm one of them
for an extended period (and I'm definitely FAR from
that now!), I choose to work towards that goal in order
to motivate myself and make my path clearer.
Now, to the techniques: I majored in German Studies,
for which I had to read a lot of varying types of
German (and D-A-CH) literature: Goethe, Heine,
Schiller, Hölderlin, Eichendorff, Büchner, Frisch,
Droste-Hülshoff, Keller, Mörike, Lessing, Brecht,
Kafka, Haushofer, etc. I watched and listened to the
music of German operas during some of my classes. I
also took a course in "Minnesang", courtly-
love/minstrel poetry, reading it in both modern and
Middle High German. Later I took a modern German-film
class, including films by Turkish-German directors such
as Fatih Akin. For years I've been listening to German
pop-rock music from the sixties until now and learning
German idioms and quotations from friends and books,
and recently I started watching German TV and reading
"Krimis" (crime novels). Every time I hear a cultural
reference to something German I don't yet understand, I
go online and look it up.
As you can tell from the above paragraph, cultural
literacy is, in my opinion, the difference between
merely "fluent" and "near-native". You have to be able
to share references with people. Just today, while
chatting with my new German flatmates, I sang along
with a silly song about a rubber duck –
"Quietscheentchen, nur mit dir...", agreed that Tatort
MĂĽnster is the best of all the Tatort series, and
laughed in amazement at how well one of my friends
could imitate the voices of Klaus Kinski and Udo
Lindenberg. Now, I'm not claiming anyone would mistake
me for a native, yet! But focusing on these things is
what quickly brings you into a culture and a language,
in my opinion.
To continue this as intensively as possible, I'm
basically doing two things: constantly asking questions
of German people (I don't care if I sound like a
toddler: "Why does it rain? What's a cloud? Where's the
moon?"), and hungrily taking in every type of German
media I can get my hands on: highbrow literature,
lowbrow thriller novels, cheesy soap operas, news
websites, films of every description, music of every
German-language artist I can find, etc. In fact, I
don't only stick to German-language musicians: recently
I discovered a list of the top 100 hit songs of all
time on the German charts, and I made it my goal to go
through the whole list and listen to them all.
Because, you know, this is what Germans have grown up
with. It's the most effective way I can think of to
regain the lost German childhood I never had.
So, in a nutshell: after reaching a level of advanced
linguistic knowledge, I believe the most effective way
to proceed towards near-native knowledge is to become
familiar with as many cultural references as possible.
|
|
|
This is a very old thread, so I hope nobody will mind
if I hijack it slightly....
@Jinx, respect. And many thanks for your comments on
soaking in cultural references which is exactly what I
did when I moved to England.
Question: I take it you do not approach the other
languages you learn with the same intensity? - because
there simply aren't enough hours in the day...
cod2 on 09 August 2015
|
Zwlth wrote:
2. The second is to make a conscious effort to control the selection of the language you think in. Turn off English or whatever
your native language automatic default system is and deliberately use a different operating system.
(...)
Could others please share what they do on their own to engage their languages in order to try to advance even further once they are
already advanced? |
|
|
Instead of trying to think on my target language, I walk around with a little notebook in my pocket, and whenever I think or listen to
a word or expression that I realize I do not know in my target language ( that is, English ) I write it down and search for its
translation later on. So, even if I'm thinking in Portuguese, English is always running on the background, checking for vocabulary
gaps. Here are some examples of words I've learned this way in the past few days:
bem-te-vi &nb sp; Great Kiskadee
mamadeira &nb sp; baby bottle
dar indiretas &nb sp; to drop a hint
dar birra & nbsp; to throw a tantrum
I don't like to use SRS at advanced stages of learning, so instead of creating flashcards, I search for texts or newspaper articles on
the Internet that contain these words, as it is very likely that these articles will present to me yet more new words and expressions
on my target language.
Ruan on 24 August 2015
|
|