Would you find it disrespectful?
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Forum Name: Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages
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Printed Date: 13 June 2021 at 5:29am
Posted By: Rykketid
Subject: Would you find it disrespectful?
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 5:55pm
Imagine this scenario:
you are in a relationship with a person whose native language is not the same as yours.
You speak his/her language well and that's the language you use to communicate. Instead
your partner doesn't speak yours.
Moreover, he/she shows no signs whatsoever of interest towards your language and does
no efforts to learn a bit of it, even just the basic things.
How would you react and what would you do? Would you tell him/her openly that you want
him/her to study your language? And if he/she starts learning it but in a very
superficial and unethusiastic way, how would you feel?
(Not that I'm really in this situation, it's just out of curiosity)
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Replies:
In such a case, I wouldn't be in a relationship with that person. Why do so, if he/she
doesn't show any interest in the language you speak, the culture you identify with, etc.?
Mae on 15 July 2012
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Been in that position, ended up learning French better than she learned Dutch (although
we spoke English), even learned a few words of Romanian and Hebrew. She did speak some
Dutch already but wasn't too interested in practicing.
We're no longer together so X)
tarvos on 15 July 2012
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That's how the relationship between my Polish aunt and Italian uncle looks like. Shame for him. I can't imagine situation like that - it's like ignoring the part of a person.
prz_ on 15 July 2012
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I suppose it depends on circumstances.
My ex-wife and I only spoke Spanish to each other. While we lived in Mexico, she had no
desire (or
need) to learn English. When we moved to the US, she began learning English and ended
up
learning it to a fairly high level, because she needed it to live independently outside
our house.
We still only spoke Spanish at home, though. Had we not moved to the US, she wouldn't
have learned English.
R.
==
hrhenry on 15 July 2012
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I guess I could not be in a relationship with such a person as my language and culture
are an important part of me. Furthermore, I would be afraid that my desire to raise the
child in my language (i.e. bilingually) would not be understood. No idea what I would do,
though, it would depend on how much I would be in love with this person...
I know a few couples like that but they usually make an effort to show at least some
interest and learn a few basic words and phrases.
Julie on 15 July 2012
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In the beginnings or first few months, I wouldn't care. But if I was with the person for
longer and wanted to introduce him to my family (vast majority of which are monolingual),
I would expect him to learn. No need to be perfect, just to try and to show he cares so
much that he wants to understand my family. My friends usually speak more or less good
English, many of them one more language as well, but I probably wouldn't be comfortable
to take someone regularily among them if it meant whole company would have to speak non-
native language, including those who are less comfortable with it.
Cavesa on 15 July 2012
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I just asked my wife, who I am happily married to, and to whom I can only speak rudimentary German to, and she says she doesn't feel disrespected.
I think the point is that anything less than fluency really doesn't make much difference in a relationship. She doesn't care if I don't know how to order coffee, or say thank you, or give basic directions etc (I can do all these things, but it's irrelevant to our level of communication).
I am learning German, for various reasons, and in part to learn her culture better, but I (and she) doubts that we'll be able to communicate our feelings/thoughts/etc better if I speak fluent German. Her English is at an almost native level and it's hard to imagine we'll be able to say anything more to each other no matter how good I speak German.
patrickwilken on 15 July 2012
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It depends on the situation. For example, if I had the feeling the other person genuinely didn't care about my language and culture, I would pretty soon wonder why s/he was interested in me at all. If however I could see that my lover does have some interest but feels inhibited I could definitely understand that and I'd try to tone down my sometimes alienating nerdiness and perfectionism and be more encouraging.
Bao on 15 July 2012
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This thread baffles me. Don't you love your partner? What difference does it make?
I think this is a pretty egoistic point of view.
I'd help her learn German if she wanted, but if not, that'd be okay, too. I'd be with her for what she is, not for which languages she speaks.
atama warui on 15 July 2012
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atama warui wrote:
This thread baffles me. Don't you love your partner? What difference does it make?
I think this is a pretty egoistic point of view.
I'd help her learn German if she wanted, but if not, that'd be okay, too. I'd be with her for what she is, not for which languages she speaks. |
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Love, after the initial infatuation, is something both partners have to work for. And to me, that includes trying to understand the cultural background of the partner, to a certain degree.
Bao on 15 July 2012
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Bao wrote:
Love, after the initial infatuation, is something both partners have to work for. And to
me, that includes trying to understand the cultural background of the partner, to a
certain degree. |
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True, but we're also a much more connected global society now than we've ever been. It's
much harder to ignore other cultures, in general, and if the other culture is American,
it's near impossible.
R.
==
hrhenry on 15 July 2012
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This may depend on where the two live. If a speaker of language A is living with a speaker of language B in country A, speaker B would learn language A by default. The issue then would be whether speaker A would also choose to learn language B. Well, some speakers of B would get exercised over speaker A not learning their language, some wouldn't. I myself am generally a believer that people shouldn't get into a committed relationship to learn all they can about their mutual cultures, but to be together. Now, of course, if speaker B has relatives that don't speak language A, it would be nice for speaker A to learn language B for family visits, but perhaps they can all just speak English (or some other common language) during those visits? :)
Another possibility is when a speaker of language A and a speaker of language B live in country C. This happens to be my own case, I am a native speaker of Russian while my wife's native languages are Hindi and Punjabi, although her English skills are near-native. She is busy and is generally not into languages, so she will never learn Russian, while I am into languages and have Hindi on my target list, but haven't really done much about it yet. We've been married for 23 years, so the English-only household linguistic arrangement seems to work for us.
frenkeld on 15 July 2012
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It wouldn't bother me one bit. The fact that I found a partner that I truly love who doesn't speak English would make the learning of that language worth every minute I spent on it and could careless if they bothered to learn English or not.
sillygoose1 on 15 July 2012
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Once upon a time my greatest wish was to move to Spain and marry a Spaniard. I cannot imagine that I would have found a Spaniard willing to learn Norwegian in a million years. I do not belive that this would have made me love him less.
Having said that, I always found it baffling how people could marry someone about who they did not have even the most rudimentary knowledge.
A Norwegian girl I once knew married a guy from India, and I found more out about his cultural background in 30 minutes' conversation than she knew after 6 months of marriage. She had no idea what his native language was or which religion he had, and their cultural levels were light years apart. He was a very educated man, and she was practically an idiot. I lost contact with her shortly after, but I cannot belive that they were married more than the compulsary three years.
Solfrid Cristin on 15 July 2012
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frenkeld wrote:
Now, of course, if the speaker B has relatives that don't speak
language A, it would be nice for the speaker A to learn language B for family visits,
but perhaps they can all just speak English (or some other regional lingua
franca) during those visits? :)
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You assume everyone speaks English or another large language. Which is not the case in
many families. (Or for exemple try to explain to monolingual French family that you
don't consider French to be enough "lingua franca" :-D). It may be egoistic but I'd
feel strange if there was no way of communication between my family and my beloved one
(apart from my translations) because I might want the beloved one to become a part of
the family in future. And for this, the basics of the language would surely suffice
because both parties would try their best to communicate. And the needed topics could
be learnt on the go :-)
And even though it wouldn't be an obstacle for the two of us speaking, I would take it
as a sign that my partner doesn't consider my country to be an option for our future
life at all. (Currently, I have the opposite "trouble", my czech boyfriend isn't too
open to the idea of us living somewhere else :-D but it is slowly changing)
The truth is that you can throw it all away because you are madly in love. But as
someone already wisely wrote here, you are madly in love just in the beginnings, after
that there is a lot of work :-)
P.S. at this mixed-couple topic, I always remember not only the few mixed pairs I know
but as well one documentary film about a Czech man and a Chinese woman who have been
married for years (living here) and now they are both as good in the language of the
other one that he even asks in Chinese and she answers in Czech. I know this is a level
not necessary or needed for vast majority of couples, but for me, it is such a
beautiful symbol of understanding each other, valuing each other so much and having
spent countless hours speaking and obviously enjoying it even after years.
Cavesa on 15 July 2012
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Solfrid Cristin wrote:
| A Norwegian girl I once knew married a guy from India, and I found more out about his cultural background in 30 minutes' conversation than she knew after 6 months of marriage. She had no idea what his native language was or which religion he had, and their cultural levels were light years apart. He was a very educated man, and she was practically an idiot. I lost contact with her shortly after, but I cannot belive that they were married more than the compulsary three years. |
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I can't but wonder how they got to know each other in the first place, but I suppose that's beyond the scope of this topic. :)
jeff_lindqvist on 15 July 2012
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Cavesa wrote:
| You assume everyone speaks English or another large language. Which is not the case in many families. |
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No, I do not assume this, that's why I had a smiley after my statement. The issue of how to communicate with the relatives has to be settled in each particular case. With my wife being from India, English has been an easy and nearly complete solution with all the family members but my mother-in-law, who reads newspapers in English, but speaks it only rather haltingly, so even though I really like her I don't talk to her as much during my visits there than I would if I had learned Hindi to a decent level, but I haven't learned it yet and my wife has never held it against me. Now, if my mother-in-law didn't speak English at all, I would have more of an incentive to learn Hindi. Again, these matters can only be settled on a case-by-case basis - there can be no general rules about it.
frenkeld on 15 July 2012
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I don't find it disrespectful at all! I'm in the situation speaker A and speaker B live in country C, or even more complicated:
I'm half German half Irish and my girlfriend is half Colombian half Spanish and we're living in France. Since we got to know each other here in France we have been speaking French all the time. I already had in my mind to learn Spanish one day but chose Italian (and French!) first. After one month together I bought a book and started to learn Spanish - more or less without telling her I was doing it seriously with several hours a day. Apart from that, she wasn't aware of the fact I was some kind of language freak. I then began a conversation in Spanish with her that lasted some minutes... She was SO BAFFLED and I absolutely enjoyed this moment! When I met her the first time, all I knew was "no tengo amigos" :D
Nowadays we normally continue speaking French but when we are alone for some long time, we totally switch to Spanish. When we are outside it is very difficult to maintain this because we have to speak French with everybody else in every situation. I find this very sad sometimes because I would love to speak to her in her mother tongue.
My girlfriend never wanted to learn German seriously and doesn't seem that interested. I once bought her a little German book for Spanish native speakers and I taught her some phrases and expressions but that's all. I am not upset or anything, really she has enough to do and I can understand if she devotes her free time to something other than learning languages. And the fact that she doesn't want to learn my language doesn't mean she's not interested in my country, my culture etc. Not at all!
dinguino on 16 July 2012
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sillygoose1 wrote:
It wouldn't bother me one bit. The fact that I found a partner
that I truly love who doesn't speak English would make the learning of that language
worth every minute I spent on it and could careless if they bothered to learn English
or not. |
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I strongly agree with this.
My mother (first and home language Chinese) and father (native language Dutch) never
learned a word of each other's native languages. They divorced recently, but it didn't
have anything to do with that.
My personal experience has only ever been from the other side. I was with a Dutch guy
for some time, and, especially at the beginning, my Dutch was abysmal. He didn't seem
to mind. He already liked me, that's why we were together.
I think my interest in Dutch culture was actually much more important, and you can
learn a surprising amount about that without knowing much of the language.
Hekje on 16 July 2012
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I can not and will not ask anyone I date to learn Chinese for me. If I'm happy with them, what does it matter which language we use? If they want to learn Chinese, I would be delighted and offer them my help. If not, that's fine too. (Hopefully) they like and appreciate me for who I am, them not speaking Chinese doesn't take away from that fact.
Same goes for if I were dating a Chinese person who didn't want to learn English. Though I doubt there'd be many Chinese people I'd date that wouldn't be interested in learning any English :)
ZombieKing on 16 July 2012
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It's not about asking them to, it's just them showing an interest in you.
tarvos on 16 July 2012
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First, sorry if my answer is repetitive or something, but I don't want to read all the previous answers (I won't say I'm the "busyman", but, I'm neither the nothing-to-do one... =P )
ok, so, how did those hipotetical persons meet ?
Or the man spoke her in her language, or they both speak a common language (let's say... English, if they're not native speakers of it)
Second case... simply communicate using it. (ok, if the man wanted to learn her language, "awww... that's so sweet", but HE WANTED)
First case... ok, you caught her using her language, so, you already knew it (at least the basics, and probably "used" her to help you to improve your skills), so... are you really pretending someone is going to learn a whole new language (maybe she's not interesting in that in particular) just because her/his loved one speaks it ? I don't know if this makes me a bigger idiot (I'm plenty sure it doesn't), but, I wouldn't ...
98789 on 16 July 2012
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tarvos wrote:
| It's not about asking them to, it's just them showing an interest in you. |
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Not everyone's identity is wrapped up in their language. There are enough human values that transcend
specific cultures, and not everyone is into languages.
frenkeld on 16 July 2012
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I was actually a bit taken aback by the fact that language learners, supposedly very open minded and cosmopolitan (at least in my little nutshell of a world), would even _think_ about such a topic.
What's language in a relationship? I don't need a single word to transport my feelings when I'm with my girlfriend... and the least thing I'd expect would be her learning my language. I've already learned hers, there, communication established.
My girlfriend won't marry Germany, German culture or the German language, she'll marry ME.
atama warui on 16 July 2012
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Are you going to study maths if you fall in love with a mathematician? Are you going to study music theory if you fall in love with a composer? You could argue that it's an important part of their identity - so if you don't learn to understand that part of your partner you should just forget about the relationship. What if you have no talent for maths, you ask? Too bad, I guess you weren't meant to be.
I'm equally at home in German and English and hope to be able to say the same about Korean and a host of other languages at some point, so...
I'll have to find a partner who not only speaks German, but also English - less than advanced fluency in either need not apply. At least intermediate knowledge of Korean required. Willingness to learn further languages - specifics are up for negotiation. Any takers? Looking for this guy outside of HTLAL will be futile :D
druckfehler on 16 July 2012
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I didn't want to mix the crazy and the serious, so I hope the double post is okay.
If you feel that your partner isn't interested in an important part of your identity, that's surely a problem. It's all a matter of interpretation. It could well be that your partner doesn't want to learn Italian, but appreciates your mad pizza-baking skills and your laid-back, gregarious spirit (yay, stereotypes... but I'm actually thinking about a couple I know). If you feel like your national culture is a huge part of your identity then I think it's important that your partner likes at least some of your culture-specific traits. I think language does and should take a backseat to that.
Rykketid wrote:
| Would you tell him/her openly that you want him/her to study your language? And if he/she starts learning it but in a very superficial and unethusiastic way, how would you feel? |
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If I actually did want them to learn it, yes. If you don't talk about it, how is your partner supposed to know? Maybe they never thought about it, but would acutally be open to learning the language. If not, you can talk about WHY it's actually important to you and see if the problem doesn't really lie somewhere else, for example feeling like the partner doesn't really know you or isn't really interested in your life. If you need this as a proof of the person's love then I guess there are more important areas of the relationship to work on...
Rykketid wrote:
| And if he/she starts learning it but in a very superficial and unethusiastic way, how would you feel? |
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I'd wonder why they agreed to it in the first place. I don't think anyone should learn a language out of obligation. Maybe they were enthusiastic about it, but soon noticed that it just wasn't for them and that would be okay. The person may even want to be able to speak it, but isn't happy with studying it. Language learning isn't for everyone and not every language is the same. I've given up on languages before, how could I blame someone for doing the same?
For a totally different perspective on this topic: I even know couples where one partner doesn't want the other to learn his native language, because he thinks it's useless.
druckfehler on 16 July 2012
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atama warui wrote:
| My girlfriend won't marry Germany, German culture or the German language, she'll marry ME. |
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And that's it. I will marry an individual, probably a guy, but I will also want to become part of his family and friends with his friends. I want to communicate with them. I want my lover to communicate with my family and friends. And to be included, you do have to show some effort. Somebody who doesn't care at all about these things is obviously not the kind of person who would be happy spending the rest of his life with someone like me.
ETA: And I actually do not define my identity using German-ness, if all, I define it by using anti-German-ness. Still, when balancing between two cultures people easily end up just shutting out parts of their life experience because there's nobody in their current environment who shares that kind of experience.
Bao on 16 July 2012
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Bao, in my opinion - AMAZING post.
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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I recently met a Korean lady in my German class (taught with the assistance of English) whose boyfriend is German. While she is keen to learn German, he has found his experience of learning Korean very time consuming and challenging, and simply doesn't have time to pursue it seriously.
Laurae on 16 July 2012
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It wouldn't bother ma at all. I really don't find anything disrespectful about it. I
imagine my partner would be exposed to some features of Polish culture because it is part
of me, it would be unavoidable, but I wouldn't expect him to learn the language.
pesahson on 16 July 2012
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Laurae wrote:
| I recently met a Korean lady in my German class (taught with the assistance of English) whose boyfriend is German. While she is keen to learn German, he has found his experience of learning Korean very time consuming and challenging, and simply doesn't have time to pursue it seriously. |
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Yeah, and for her it's not time consuming and challenging, absolutely not...
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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prz_ wrote:
Laurae wrote:
I recently met a Korean lady in my German class (taught
with the assistance of English) whose boyfriend is German. While she is keen to learn
German, he has found his experience of learning Korean very time consuming and
challenging, and simply doesn't have time to pursue it seriously. |
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Yeah, and for her it's not time consuming and challenging, absolutely not... |
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No need for sarcasm.
I put the important part in bold. Enthusiasm can make challenges worth it.
pesahson on 16 July 2012
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My wife was already fluent in English when me met and we have always lived in the UK. My German was limited to a few phrases I could recall from school, but I resolved to learn German and - 8 years later - I can speak the language comfortably with natives.
I would never have needed German for my home life in Britain but an international marriage also involves communication with your partner's family and friends back home. I would have felt silly going to Germany and not being able to communicate with anyone without my wife translating for me (the assumption that every German speaks perfect English does not apply in the former GDR).
beano on 16 July 2012
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atama warui wrote:
and the least thing I'd expect would be her learning my language. I've already learned hers, there, communication established.
My girlfriend won't marry Germany, German culture or the German language, she'll marry ME. |
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Depends on where you live. Your girlfriend would struggle with life in Germany if she didn't want to learn German.
beano on 16 July 2012
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beano wrote:
atama warui wrote:
and the least thing I'd expect would be her learning
my language. I've already learned hers, there, communication established.
My girlfriend won't marry Germany, German culture or the German language, she'll marry
ME. |
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Depends on where you live. Your girlfriend would struggle with life in Germany if she
didn't want to learn German. |
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You have a point but that's a completely different issue. The question was if someone
should learn a language only because of love interest.
pesahson on 16 July 2012
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pesahson wrote:
No need for sarcasm.
I put the important part in bold. Enthusiasm can make challenges worth it. |
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I've felt such need. For me it's an enormous shame, pure egoism and treating unfair his/her partner.
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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prz_ wrote:
pesahson wrote:
No need for sarcasm.
I put the important part in bold. Enthusiasm can make challenges worth it. |
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I've felt such need. For me it's an enormous shame, pure egoism and treating unfair
his/her partner. |
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Pure egoism is when one expects other person to learn a certain language only because it
happens to be one's mother tongue.
pesahson on 16 July 2012
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pesahson wrote:
Pure egoism is when one expects other person to learn a certain language only because it
happens to be one's mother tongue. |
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In my opinion people in international marriages, after 10 years, should pass A2 exam of knowledge of their partners' native languages (I know it would be sometimes hard to prove, but well...) I know it's drastic, but that's how I think and I won't change my mind easily. Sorry, but the situations like with my aunt, who knows Italian almost perfectly, completely opposite to my uncle, who can't even learn simple Polish phrases after 15 years of their marriage is a shame for humanity.
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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I find that the scenario is something one should discuss when thinking about getting married (or living together) with a person with different native language (or cultural background). The reason for me isn't the language learning itself, but the expectations people bring in such arrangement.
For me, there would be two different situations:
1. Living in "my" country or nearby.
My family is very close-knit. We are meeting often, spending part of vacations together, alternating where we spend Christmas etc. I would expect my significant other to become part of this family, including such visits. Would my partner be comfortable visiting and not being able to directly communicate with at least half of the present persons? There would be adjustments on the family's side, of course, but my partner should be forewarned. Again, it isn't really simple question of learning "my" language. The real question is whether he is ready to accept not only me but the whole package coming with me, the whole extended family. I see less problems with friends - when necessary, there could be a division in "my friends", "his friends" and "our friends".
2. Living far from my family.
I can see a relationship, where we would live far away. I would become automatically something of an outsider in our family - phone contact is not enough to stay in the loop. I wouldn't really expect my partner to learn Czech - even one or two visits in a year aren't enough to really necessitate it. The question in such case isn't "Does he learn Czech?" but "Is he ready to travel with me and visit my family when possible?" I would think very hard about a long-term relationship should the answer be "no" to the second question.
As you see, there still would be lot to discuss. Going in a relationship with expectations the partner didn't hear is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion. Laying cards on the table is best way to find a compromise both partner can live with. Partnership is just this - partnership - and it should be possible to find a reasonable solution so that both partners are happy or at least at peace with the arrangement.
Majka on 16 July 2012
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Majka wrote:
| Going in a relationship with expectations the partner didn't hear is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion. |
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In my opinion, it should be natural for a partner. If you can't take such effort, you won't take others.
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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prz_ wrote:
| Sorry, but the situations like with my aunt, who knows Italian almost perfectly, completely opposite to my uncle, who can't even learn simple Polish phrases after 15 years of their marriage is a shame for humanity. |
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Where do they live?
frenkeld on 16 July 2012
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In Italy. But it means nothing. Oh, except this, that he's a lazy [find a nice vulgarism].
Besides, from my experience too often such ignorance translate into other fields of life.
But maybe they are only my observations of examples of people being close to me.
prz_ on 16 July 2012
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The other big question here is kids. If you want the children to be able to communicate
with both families, that means you'll need to use both parent's languages in the home.
This is a lot easier if both parents understand both languages. When parent A
talks to the kids, parent B will be able to understand the conversation.
And you don't even need high-level listening skills if you start when the kids are young:
You'll get tons of concrete, repetitive, slowly-spoken input. So even 6 months of Assimil
would be enough for a big payoff.
emk on 17 July 2012
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emk wrote:
The other big question here is kids. If you want the children to be able to communicate
with both families, that means you'll need to use both parent's languages in the home. |
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EXACTLY.
Plus such lingustic egoism can also cause an important loss in children's identity.
prz_ on 17 July 2012
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Bao wrote:
| And I actually do not define my identity using German-ness, if all, I define it by using anti-German-ness. |
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Which is one of your inherently German attributes :)
Bao wrote:
| Still, when balancing between two cultures people easily end up just shutting out parts of their life experience because there's nobody in their current environment who shares that kind of experience. |
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That's an interesting thought. You have a point there. But I guess things do not have to be so black and white, every partner can find friends outside of the relationship who speak their language and share their cultural background.
prz_ wrote:
| For me it's an enormous shame, pure egoism and treating unfair his/her partner. |
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In the case that was the example here, I disagree. I assume that this girl came to Germany expressly for the purpose of learning German - it's not like she's learning German only for her boyfriend (while he would learn Korean mainly for her). I would actually assume she's happy to get the extra language practice. I know many Koreans who are eager to learn German and much less Germans who are eager to learn Korean. While that's regrettable, it's not unfair. It's really the loss of those people who aren't interested in Korea and the Korean language...
prz_ wrote:
| In Italy. But it means nothing. Oh, except this, that he's a lazy [find a nice vulgarism]. Besides, from my experience too often such ignorance translate into other fields of life. But maybe they are only my observations of examples of people being close to me. |
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I don't know your uncle, so he may well be a lazy something. But of course it would be harder to learn Polish in Italy than to learn Italian in Italy.
I'll give an example from my family: One of my cousins married a girl from Thailand. They communicate in Mandarin, because they met in China. Now that they live in Germany she's studying German, but as far as I know he isn't studying Thai. I don't think he's lazy and ignorant. I guess he wouldn't mind of his wife didn't speak German, but because she lives here now it would be impractical not to.
Another one: my aunt is a Polish Jew who spent her youth in Israel and most of her life in the US. Her parents speak Polish with her. Which language should my uncle actually study? Does this mean he'd have had to learn three languages to marry his wife? (He speaks English, so 2 additional languages.)
I'm not saying people shouldn't study languages. I would also probably want to learn my partner's native language, if it isn't one I know. I just think it's a bad idea to make it a requirement, because it may simply not be feasible for one reason or other.
druckfehler on 17 July 2012
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druckfehler wrote:
| In the case that was the example here, I disagree. I assume that this girl came to Germany expressly for the purpose of learning German - it's not like she's learning German only for her boyfriend (while he would learn Korean mainly for her |
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I thought the person who told the story was from Ireland. Was she posting from Germany?
Either way, the two can happily figure it out for themselves secure in the knowledge that there are no universal truths about language use in mixed marriages.
frenkeld on 17 July 2012
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Solfrid Cristin wrote:
She had no idea what his native language was or which religion he had, and their cultural
levels were light years apart. He was a very educated man, and she was practically an idiot. |
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Nice. Sounds like she married up.
prz_ wrote:
In my opinion people in international marriages, after 10 years, should pass A2 exam of knowledge
of their partners' native languages |
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Agreed. And if they fail, public execution.
Rykketid wrote:
| How would you react and what would you do? |
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Am I the only one here who thinks a relationship doesn't have to lead to marriage? I've had many relationships like
this. There are many solutions. For example, more boning, less talking.
Wulfgar on 17 July 2012
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druckfehler wrote:
| I don't know your uncle, so he may well be a lazy something. |
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Well... An example of the stereotypical Italian, unfortunately.
@druckfehler - you know, it's all about the will. If you have it, then almost nothing is impossible. Of course you can struggle with something, but the most important is showing your interest. Okay, maybe my opinion was a bit radical, however, I find it really unfair and I can't imagine to be like that while having a girlfriend from another country. It's really like I don't care about her roots, her history, all of the things connected with this part of her - it's like ignoring 50% of her soul.
Wulfgar wrote:
| Agreed. And if they fail, public execution. |
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Well, he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Irony accepted.
Wulfgar wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks a relationship doesn't have to lead to marriage? I've had many relationships like
this. There are many solutions. For example, more boning, less talking. |
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Of course, that's true. I'm also not very into marriages. Still, if I treat a girl seriously, then I want to know her as good as I can in all aspects.
prz_ on 17 July 2012
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My take on the original question is:
It depends on the details of the situation.
The phrase "in a relationship" can mean anything from "we've been dating for a few weeks" to "we're raising a family together". When you're talking about something as time and labor intensive as learning a new language from scratch, there's obviously a world of difference within that range.
Even if you limit the discussion to "committed, long term relationships", there's still a range of possible circumstances surrounding "native language". Are we talking about someone whose family immigrated when they were a child? Someone whose proficiency at their own "native language" never got too much beyond where it was when they were 10 years old (and may have even deteriorated some due to lack of use), and who never has any contact with any extended family in their birth country? That's an entirely different case than someone decided to study or work abroad as an adult, is in nearly constant contact with family and friends back "home", and are still most at ease in their native language.
That said: Even in the childhood immigrant case, there is little that demonstrates that you are serious about a person / relationship as concretely as working on learning a language entirely because it is their native language.
PillowRock on 17 July 2012
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I've had partners who didn't speak English when I lived overseas, and I never took it to
mean that they didn't care about 50% of my soul. I certainly like to learn languages,
and to understand other cultures, but that's my thing.
With that, I think it would be difficult to date a non-English speaker in the States,
but for a thousand practical reasons. It wouldn't be a question of personal respect at
all.
kanewai on 17 July 2012
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druckfehler wrote:
Bao wrote:
| And I actually do not define my identity using German-ness, if all, I define it by using anti-German-ness. |
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Which is one of your inherently German attributes :) |
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Haha, touché.
But I didn't actually mean it the way that most people think they're above average at a positive skill and below the average for a negative trait, and in which they think they are more complex and special than other people. At least in Western cultures. What I meant was that even though I grew up in Germany, I was not very engaged in local/family tradition (including religion), nor in popular culture, so I lack the emotional bond to our 'Heimat' that many people seem to have despity it being so kitschy.
druckfehler wrote:
Bao wrote:
| Still, when balancing between two cultures people easily end up just shutting out parts of their life experience because there's nobody in their current environment who shares that kind of experience. |
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That's an interesting thought. You have a point there. But I guess things do not have to be so black and white, every partner can find friends outside of the relationship who speak their language and share their cultural background. |
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No, not necessarily. But I found that many people show some streaks of that behaviour in such a situation. It's not necessarily bad, but somehow I would wish a serious relationship to be based on attempts to bridge such gaps, not just accepting that they are there for good. There's enough left you will never understand of the other person even when attempting to understand the, after all.
Bao on 18 July 2012
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I've been learning German for a while now, not for my boyfriend
but for me. Even though his English is very good, I would have
no issue in communicating in just German, if his English wasn't.
I would not be disrespected by this. Afterall, at the end of the
day, it doesn't matter what word one attaches to mean "love" In
other words, doesn't matter what one calls it, it's how you show
it to the one you love.
LebensForm on 18 July 2012
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I WISH my girlfriend didn't speak English! I'd be getting a lot more practice if she didn't. I'm always nagging her to stop speaking English!
There are a lot of people, though, that are married to Koreans/going out with Koreans that basically say "I'm not even going to try to learn." I can never really understand that.
Jumpman Jr. on 20 July 2012
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Well. I simply think that we should receive the same what we give. I think it's rather fair... or am I wrong maybe?
Besides, we can simply ask our partner if he or she'd like us to learn his or her native language. That's so easy... But again, maybe only for me - sometimes people are extremely strange...
P.S.
Bao wrote:
| I lack the emotional bond to our 'Heimat' that many people seem to have despity it being so kitschy |
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I HATE this word! :P
prz_ on 20 July 2012
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kanewai wrote:
I've had partners who didn't speak English when I lived overseas, and I never took it to
mean that they didn't care about 50% of my soul. I certainly like to learn languages,
and to understand other cultures, but that's my thing.
With that, I think it would be difficult to date a non-English speaker in the States,
but for a thousand practical reasons. It wouldn't be a question of personal respect at
all. |
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Agreed. There are many things that mean a great deal to different people. We are language people, but that is no reason to press that on our partners. My wife loves the piano, and she practices daily, but I don't have any interest in learning the piano myself. That doesn't mean that I don't care about her passions in life, just that we are different people. I understand that it is a slightly different scenario, but the point is that someone can love you deeply without caring about some of the things that you love.
That being said, my wife does speak English and I am constantly improving my Mandarin in order to converse with her family, so I may be in a glass house on this one.
MixedUpCody on 20 July 2012
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It really depends. Since I'm learning Japanese, I'll speak about that scenario, although the same situation could
apply to French (very infant stages).
Considering my current level of Japanese, I would prefer most communication with a potential partner from Japan to
be in Japanese. I wouldn't take at as an insult if they didn't know my language: in fact, I would take it as them
treating me normally, no different from any other Japanese man. Of course, I wouldn't mind if they had an interest
in English or could speak it, but I don't want to be treated as only able to speak English and wanted to be treated
just like a member of Japanese society, no handicaps...if that makes sense?
Joudandou on 02 October 2012
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My Italian ex-girlfriend tried to learn my native language but made no significant progress during the nearly 5 years that we were in a relationship. I think the main reason for that was my ability to speak Italian which made her a bit lazy. :p The second most important factor was that she expected ME to TEACH her how to speak Finnish (which, as you probably know, is not the best method if you want to learn a foreign language)...
Although she never really learned the language, I'm happy that she was willing to at least give it a try. To me it was a sign of respect.
bela_lugosi on 30 October 2012
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In N. America we are used to being in a multi-cultural melting pot with English being the dominant language.
Unlike in Europe people are much more aware of their ethnic identity in this part of the world being able to
communicate in English is sufficient.
I've come across a few people who are ethnically Chinese. We all get together as an extended family for Chinese
meals. The older generation would be speaking in Cantonese and the younger crowd would reply back in English.
There was no shame attach to it. There are several in the younger generation who are fluent in both but again
speaking in either language isn't much of an issue.
And then there are people who are Chinese married to others of different ethnicity. Again the kids would be
speaking in English at the dinner table and didn't seem to bother anybody. There was a couple where the man is
Chinese and the lady is White. She actually took half a year of Cantonese classes. Although unable to carry on a
conversation the wife knows all the Chinese food items at the dinner table. Everybody is very accommodating
speaking to her in English.
And in there is the case of someone who speaks Cantonese as a mother-tongue and another who speak Mandarin.
At the dinner table they would be communicating in English. Not an issue. If someone in the group is not fluent in
Mandarin at a dinner gathering where everybody speaks Mandarin instead of English, he would keep quiet during
the whole dinner. Didn't seem to bother the rest of the crowd.
shk00design on 04 November 2013
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First of all: I've no experience, so everything following is just a thinking and theory-making.
It depends on languages and the country where two are going to live. That's obvious.
I'm a native Russian speaker and my family is basically monolingual. I don't think that I'll go hard and escape my family once so I need them to know the man who interest me.
The easiest way would be in case of English (or, maybe, German - if my father and his parents still remember some school German they've taken). I know the language enough to be an interpreter in conversational situations (hopefully). But I wouldn't be truly objective, I think. Plus, my family wouldn't be able to ask him to answer honestly what he think about me without me being around. It seems not so important, but I doubt it.
Any language but English and German would make everything even harder. He probably could struggle to think in Eng, so am I, tension and whatever can make our English bridge weak. My family could simply not stand on it. Well, I don't think that misunderstanding from their side would stop me, but it's possible.
It's really hard from my side to demand him to learn Russian. I myself are skeptical about learning Russian on demand anyway. I think I would stand that he will not learn with too serious aims. But if he'll behave like my Russian does not exist, if he would protest about teaching our kids Russian... it would be truly offensive for me.
On the other hand, I need to learn his language. At this point of life and experience (which is zero, just to remind) I think that I'll learn a language if that'll be important for him. In the worst case (of Mandarin, for example) I'll ask to teach me the basics anyway. If I am to find that when speaking his native language the relationship is really improving, I would go hard and try to do everything possible.
Honestly, I think that love should motivate one enough for something like this.
I'm sure that there are some things that are truly impossible to say in any language but native. Keeping in mind that I'm a native speaker of relatively hard Russian, I think that I should be the one who'll learn another's language. But this doesn't mean that Russian shall be completely neglected by him.
And last but not the least - pretty much everything written above does not imply in the cases of Ukrainian, Belorussian and, maybe, any other Slavic language. I really can't imagine how things would go in this situation for I could be hard one to teach and so could he. That'll be a matter of luck and conditions.
To be honest, I don't know why I even decided to write here, I'm so shy and closed that me dating some Russian guy would be quite an improvement, what to say about a foreigner?! That seems just impossible right now, hehe...
Via Diva on 04 November 2013
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It all depends on the relationship. My husband and I have different native languages. Someday I'll learn Tagalog,
and maybe someday he'll learn French (although I kind of doubt it), but neither of us are terribly concerned about
the fact that we live our lives together in English. We've been together for almost 15 years, so it obviously works
for us.
I can't imagine trying to force a language on anyone. Learning a language is a huge amount of work. For people
who love learning languages, it's fun…but for people who aren't interested, I think that it would add a lot of
unnecessary tension to the relationship. I can't imagine language being a "deal-breaker" in a relationship,
especially if you live together in a place with a dominant language that you both speak.
That said, there's a difference between not wanting to learn a language and showing disrespect for a person's
culture, family and background. That *would* be a deal-breaker - but it has nothing to do with language, in my
opinion.
Stelle on 04 November 2013
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