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How polite is your language?

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Forum Name: Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages
Forum Discription: The place to share your personal cultural experiences in foreign languages: books you read, trips, Zeitgeist abroad and other memorable things you did in a foreign language.
URL: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33473
Printed Date: 13 June 2021 at 5:25am

Posted By: Ogrim
Subject: How polite is your language?
Date Posted: 21 August 2012 at 4:17pm

The topic for this post is about the use of different forms for addressing a person or persons, i.e. the distinction between “polite” and “familiar” pronouns. English has not made such a distinction for centuries, where it is actually the old polite form which has replaced the Old English “thou”. However, in in many languages there are polite and familiar forms.

The challenge is to use the forms correctly, and here the situation varies greatly from language to language and country to country. I have therefore made an attempt to summarise my own observations in languages and countries I know. However, I really look forward to receiving input from other members and stand to be corrected if I am mistaken.

Norwegian: In my mother tongue, although the distinction exists (familiar “du” and polite “De”), the polite form is not used any more (except maybe by some really old and conservative persons). Everyone says “du” to everyone.

French: The “vous” is still very much the norm in France, and you would never address a stranger (e.g. a shop attendant or a waiter) with “tu”. However, I do feel that there is a slight tendency for younger people to switch to “tu” more rapidly than what was maybe the norm some years ago. My approach is that I address everyone with “vous” and only switch to “tu” if they invite me to do so.

German: I am less familiar with the situation in Germany, but from my regular visits there it seems to be similar to France. I would love to have more information on this.

Spanish: The situation in Spain has developed enormously over the last 20 years or so. The polite from “usted” is still used, but less and less. Obviously, in formal and official settings it will be used. No journalist will address the Spanish Prime Minister as “tú”. However, it is quite normal that a waiter or a taxi driver will talk to you directly in the familiar form. In Latin America I have the impression that tú is still used in a much more restrictive way (not to mention that in the plural, “Ustedes” has replaced “vosotros”). In Spain I find it can sometimes be difficult to decide which form to use, but my advice would be that it is better to use “usted” if unsure – some people my still get offended if you address them directly with “tú” the first time you speak with them. However, you may expect them to reply to you using the familiar form.

Russian: I am still a beginner in Russian, so here I would ask for input. I do have the impression that the polite form is the norm.

I will leave it at this for the time being, and as said, I look forward to contributions and to learn about the situation in other languages and countries.

Replies:

Czech: the same situation as in France - the polite "vy" is still very much the norm.
I have been working with some people more than 10 years and we are still using the polite form. On the other hand, I am using the familiar "ty" with the CEO of the company almost since I started there as a lowly assistant. Of course, this was his suggestion.

I can very well remember starting high school. This was the moment the teacher started to address us in the polite form.

As far as I know, the situation in Germany and Austria is similar to Czech. The familiar form is used among friends, is used more commonly even among passing acquaintances then few years ago. The formal "dance" of who can suggest to use the familiar form is less strongly observed. But even now, it is better to err on the polite side.
Majka on 21 August 2012

Ogrim wrote:

German: I am less familiar with the situation in Germany, but from my regular visits there it seems to be similar to France. I would love to have more information on this.

You would address every unknown grown-up with "Sie". Younger people tend to offer the "du" faster than older people. University students always address each other with "du". Moreover, in rural areas, where "everybody knows everybody", the "du" is more common. Saying "Sie" would be regarded very impersonal in this case. Working class people tend to say "du" to each other, too. Formal situations always require the "Sie", though.

Ogrim wrote:

Russian: I am still a beginner in Russian, so here I would ask for input. I do have the impression that the polite form is the norm.

Yes, the polite form вы is still very much alive in Russian.
Josquin on 21 August 2012

I'm still unsure which to use with my Russian parents-in-law. My wife uses "ты" (informal "you"), whereas my sister-in-law's husband still uses "вы" (formal "you"), even after several years living with them. I wonder what other son- or daughter-in-laws do in Russia in this situation?

Personally, I see them as my own mum and dad now and feel very close to them, so I'd like to use "ты" like my wife. I was also brought up in an Irish family, so I prefer to be open-hearted and down-to-earth with everyone, without the need for too much formality.

When my wife asked her parents what they'd like me to use, they seemed very embarrassed and tried to swiftly change the topic. After a little persistence, they simply suggested whichever he feels most comfortable with, with a grinning side-glance to each other. At the time I guessed they simply didn't want to make waves with their other son-in-law. So I incorporated a mixture of both, which didn't seem to matter much in the end, as I had the Russian language skills of a dazed toddler anyhow!

Incidentally, I used to hear "tha" and "thee" used a lot in conversation whilst living in Yorkshire. In fact, you can get a flavour of this by just going on YouTube and finding a clip of Bill Owen in any episode of the tv comedy "Last of the Summer Wine". So the distinction in English hasn't completely died out yet... ;)
Teango on 21 August 2012

Teango wrote:

^this^ is what I meant with the "formal dance". I suspect the situation is very similar to what we would and could do.
The "correct" way is to wait till the parents-in-law suggest to use the informal way. Usually, this gets solved with the birth of grandchildren, because they are nowadays expected to use the familiar form. Consequently, the parents get free pass. 100 years ago, even among family members the formal form was often used.
Then, there is the "dance around it" - use neither form. One can go years without really address people in one or other form.
And finally, there is the most risky way - assess the situation, take the risk and ask - not suggest - ask.

In your situation I would be probably using the polite form. It isn't necessarily a sign of distance, but more of respect.
Majka on 21 August 2012

Teango, those are interesting observations. I've always used tú to my Spanish parents-in-law, but my mother-in-law always said "usted" to her mother-in-law. In Spain there has clearly been a change from one generation to the other.

I asked a few of my French friends how they address their parents-in-law. The majority said that they use "tu", but most of them had used "vous" when they first met their parents-in-law to be. Normally they would start to use "tu" when the relationship got really serious (i.e. marriage being planned;)

Ogrim on 21 August 2012

Usually in Bulgarian, the formal Вие (Vie) is used with strangers and ти (ti) with family members, friends, and
acquaintances, similar to the use in other Slavic languages as mentioned above. I've always used ти with my
grandparents since i could remember. I think the common attitude in Bulgaria is to use Вие with people you
absolutely don't know such as people passing on the street, waiters and waitresses, or store personnel. You would
also use Вие with your boss and others in a respected position with whom you don't share a close personal
connection. I've noticed that most people who get together for dinner or drinks almost always refer to each other
with ти, simply because they are close enough to be in such a situation together. This almost reminds me of the
"drink to du" that I read about in my Danish textbook.

The Вие/ти distinction is one thing, but familiarity can also be expressed in other ways in Bulgarian such as use of
the particle бе (or more rarely ма). Use of бе implies extreme familiarity between individuals to the point where it
is downright insulting if used in any other situation. Бе used to be used exclusively with males which is where the
ма variation comes from (used for females). An interesting example of the fine line in familiarity in Bulgarian that
has stuck out to me is with my mother's use of the language. She refers to her mother as майче (majche) while she
refers to her mother-in-law as майко (majko). Майче is a diminutive of майка (majka) meaning mother while
майко is the vocative form of the same.

Edit: I forgot to note that Вие and derived pronouns are always capitalized when they have the formal meaning
(singular or plural) and are lowercase (except when beginning a sentence) when they mean the second person
informal plural.
Kartof on 21 August 2012

Teango wrote:

I wonder what other son- or daughter-in-laws do in Russia in this situation?

At least in my extended family addressing the parents-in-law as вы seems to be the norm. The only exception is my own father in relation to my mother's parents, but they have rather unusual circumstances - my father knew my grandfather back when the former was a little kid and the latter was in his early twenties, so my father sees him as more of a childhood friend of the family than an in-law.

Overall the situation in Russian seems to be similar to French, with some major changes having happened over the last few decades. My grandparents' generation would have used вы even with their parents. Actually, lots of my peers in Kazakhstan still do that, so I'm assuming that that's the norm in Kazakh. The difference in Kazakh is that the 2nd person polite pronoun and the 2nd person plural pronoun are not the same. The polite and plain forms are completely separate, each with its own plural (plain form "sen-sender", polite form "siz-sizder") and its own conjugation and declension pattern (although I believe those are still simpler and more consistent that the ones in Russian).

Abkhaz is an interesting case, in that originally there was no polite form of the second person pronoun, and people would only distinguish between the singular second person pronouns by the addressee's gender ("wara" for men, "bara" for women). Under the influence of Russian in the past century the Abkhaz started to use the second person plural "š°ara"* as the polite form. However, an Abkhaz speaker told me that it's still not as widespread as it is in Russian and mostly reserved for the most official circumstances.

And then there's Japanese with its complex multi-tiered politeness system and numerous first, second and third person pronouns whose usage depends on the speakers' gender, age and relative social position. I could talk about it for hours, but suffice it to say that knowing when to use which level of politeness and/or formality is very important.

*Edit: Corrected an error; I had originally written the word for "we" (hara) instead of the "you (pl.)".
vonPeterhof on 21 August 2012

See http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=25246&PN=3 - here for more discussion on the subject.
Chung on 21 August 2012

The informal jij (or je) is more or less the norm in Dutch. You may approach strangers with u to be
extra-polite but no one will be offended if you don't. It is still respectful to use u with really old people, and
formal letters (banks bothering you, etc.) always use u.

There's a classic song by the Dutch ska band Doe Maar called "Pa" that's related to this topic. Basically, a father is
exhorting his son not to be such a bum, and part of the chorus goes as follows:

Blijf niet hangen, recht naar huis toe, spreek met twee woorden
Stel je netjes voor, eet zoals het hoort en zeg u!

"Don't loiter, go straight home, speak with two words
Present yourself tidily, eat as you should, and say 'u'!"
Hekje on 21 August 2012

"Tha" and "thee" are still alive and more or less well in parts of Lancashire and
Cumbria also, though it tends to be older people in rural areas, or if younger, then
people wearing their "northernness" rather self-consciously (to distinguish themselves
from us soft southern jessies, no doubt :-) ).

I wouldn't be surprised to hear it occasionally in parts of the west country as well.

More seriously though, I suppose you could say that English now uses other, more subtle
ways of expressing politeness.

I was interested to read the comment about Norwegian. In TYS Complete Danish (my copy
of which being a fairly recent printing) they are teaching "De" for polite usage,
although we do hear from one character who says she uses "du" to everyone.

I wonder if the book is a bit outdated or just teaching a conservative form of the
language. I'd have guessed the Danes to be the most informal of the Scandinavians!

In one of the Wallander books (which I have only read in translation, and was written
in the 1990s), there is a reference to a person whom W. meets, who uses the formal form
of address, and Wallander thinks he is a bit stuck up, so obviously it wasn't usual in
Sweden by then.

EDIT: OK, I see in that older thread that Danish has been covered, and indeed, TYSCD is
a bit behind the times. Which does not totally surprise me.

montmorency on 21 August 2012

On (older) English usage again, especially in the north, there are semi apocryphal
stories of young apprentices and the like being admonished for using "thee" to their
boss (in the days when there was a very rigid hierarchical structure - not that long
ago actually).

There are variations (which you can find if you google, e.g. "thee thou them" (using
the quotes), but the version of the story I was told was:

New young apprentice in the factory addresses the senior foreman (or someone who is
"God" to him) by "thee", not knowing any better, since this is what he uses to his
family and his mates.

The foreman becomes apoplectic, and hollers at the poor young lad:

"Don't thee thou me!"

"Thee thou them as tha's thee!"

i.e. don't address me in the informal manner - you keep that for use among for social
equals.

montmorency on 21 August 2012

I'm not a big fan of politeness. I think a lot of the time it's about showing respect
that you don't actually feel.

It weirds me out sometimes when people call me meneer.
numerodix on 21 August 2012

I would say that the use of tú, vos and usted in Medellín is almost impossible to completely understand as non-
native speaker, or at least impossible to explain completely to other English speakers. I think I have a fairly good
intuitive understanding now of how, when and why the various forms of address are used. One thing for sure is
that it is much more than differing levels of respect. I remember one day after I'd been here for a few months, I
was sitting at a friends house thinking about how I would explain the difficulty of using coreectly tú, vos and ud
to friends back home when my friends grandmother walked in and they had a brief conversation that managed to
use all three forms of address in just a few sentences. I don't remember it exactly but it included:
"qué estás haciendo" (tu)
"ud está muy bonita hoy" (ud) and
"contáme!" (vos imperative)

It was the perfect illustration of what I was trying to come up with just at that moment to explain the difficulty to
my friends.

My current understanding of the different uses of tú, vos and ud in Medellín is as follows:

Tú - The most important point here is that using tú shows affection. it can be considered 'gay' for a male to use
tú with other males, unless they are close, and even in that case it's rare. In interaction between males and
females it can be flirty (although at times they might use vos or ud in an effort to build attraction by actively
showing disinterest - a whole other topic), or it can be between good friends, however if there's a mixed group
out together as friends it's more likely they'll use vos.

Vos - It's the buddy/pal/mate form of address. Not affectionate but more of a slap on the back 'hows it going'
kind of vibe. Heavily used in both male-male and female-female friendships (I mention this because I initially had
the feeling it was more of a male-male thing). It's not restricted to young people. I've heard it used between all
generations of a family up to the great grandmother and her great granddaughter.
Examples:
"subile el volumen parce" (imperative, parce = mate)
"oye gorda que vas a tomar vos?" (girlfriends call each other gorda)

Usted - This is easily the hardest to figure out. There's an impressive amount of nuance to it's use. It includes the
obvious respectful use but it more often than not is not a show of respect but a deliberate distancing. I'm often
surprised when I see something on tv where the protagonist is yelling something aggressive to his arch enemy
(You'll pay for this!..for example) and the Spanish subtitles have them screaming at each other with the tú
conjugations. That would just never be the case here, it would always be usted. But there are other subtleties, for
example a boyfriend and girlfriend would usually use tú and sometimes when they fight they'll use usted or vos,
but there's another affectionate use of usted that I can only think to describe as cheeky. This cheeky use is seen
among families but usted among family members can also just be a matter of fact way of speaking when asking
simple things like 'where are you going'. Another example would be a grandmother getting her young grandchild
ready for school in the morning, or telling him of for making a mess is most likely going to use usted as well.
Sorry If this explanation became a bit convoluted, it's still all pretty convoluted in my head.

One thing I wish I was taught before coming is how using tú/usted in the command form is interpreted. It's much
less about the levels of respect and more about the force of the command. Is it 'come la ensalada' (eat the salad)
or 'coma la ensalada' (more like, eat the salad! (or else!). A tú command is more like a suggestion while an usted
command is more like a demand (and can be considered quite rude).

rasta87 on 22 August 2012

numerodix wrote:

I'm not a big fan of politeness. I think a lot of the time it's about showing respect
that you don't actually feel.

It weirds me out sometimes when people call me meneer.

Then better never go to Germany! Everybody will call you "Herr".

I'm often surprised by Englishmen and Americans using first names when it would be "Herr/Frau + last name" in German.

In letters and e-mails, it's even "Sehr geehrte(r) Herr/Frau + last name". That would be something like "Highly honoured Mr/Mrs xy" in English.
Josquin on 22 August 2012

rasta87 wrote:

"qué estás haciendo" (tu)

Just curious: Isn't estás the form they'd use with vos as well?
tractor on 22 August 2012

Josquin wrote:

numerodix wrote:

I'm not a big fan of politeness. I think a lot of
the time it's about showing respect
that you don't actually feel.

It weirds me out sometimes when people call me meneer.

Then better never go to Germany! Everybody will call you "Herr".

I'm often surprised by Englishmen and Americans using first names when it would be
"Herr/Frau + last name" in German.

In letters and e-mails, it's even "Sehr geehrte(r) Herr/Frau + last name". That would
be something like "Highly honoured Mr/Mrs xy" in English.

You are right about England (and probably about America), but even here there are
limits, and (as I mentioned in the other thread) I still get slightly shocked and
sometimes annoyed if a first name is used inappropriately. By this I almost always mean
someone in a client / sales or service personnel situation where I am the client, and
the salesperson assumes a friendliness that I am not ready for. At this stage I want to
keep my distance, and his use of my first name feels like he's infringing on my
territory a little.

Things have changed a lot in my life time. At secondary school we were addressed only
by our surnames (e.g. "Sit down Smith!"). , by teachers and fellow pupils (this was
mainly in boys' schools). When I entered the work force in 1968, we used first names
for immediate colleagues, but bosses were still "Mr ...". A few years later this seemed
to change and it was almost always first names at work, even to bosses (this was IT
though, and they were quite proud of their informality - a sort of sign of
"modernness").

Paradoxically, as you can tell from older novels and films depicting the period, in an
even older generation, especially among somewhat upper class men, it was normal to
address friends by their surnames only, i.e. "Oh hello Smith old man...", whereas
people you didn't know or knew slightly would be "Mr Smith". I think it was similar in
Germany from my reading of older novels.

Getting back to modern England, apart from the occasional unwanted use of forenames by
salesmen, etc, at the other end of the scale, the use of "Sir" is so unusual now, that
when you are addressed that way, alarm bells of a different kind go on: why is this
person being so "respectful" to me? i.e. you don't quite trust it.

It's a shame; we don't generally refer to strangers in the street as "Sir" any more (I
presume that we once did), so when you need to address some one (e.g. if they have
dropped something), you are a bit stuck. Occasionally I do use "Sir" if I can't think
of anything else, but it feels odd ... it doesn't come naturally like "Monsieur" would
to a Frenchman, and I think to that extent we have lost something. Some people might
say "mate", but that sounds a bit false to me; similarly, the word "buddy" has become
fashionable among some people (rather bizarrely I feel - where did it come from? Yes,
the USA originally, but it sounds like old-fashioned USA usage, not modern. ("Buddy can
you spare a dime" etc).

But a question about German usage: I think you have the same problem as we have: you
don't really have a "Monsieur" that you can use in a fairly neutral way do you?

I've never heard Germans (and I was never taught to) say: "Guten Morgen Mein Herr", for
example, although I presume it is technically correct to do so. Public speakers have
the set phrase "Meine Damen und Herren", just like our "Ladies and Gentlemen", but
that's different.

And waiters have set phrases like "die Herrschaften" don't they? Again, that's a little
different, and I don't think I've heard "Mein Herr" even there.

EDIT@Josquin: Or did you mean people will use "Herr" on its own (with no family
name) in direct address? e.g. "Guten Morgen Herr". ?

I don't think I've heard that usage, but maybe if I wasn't expecting it, I wasn't
listening out for it and didn't hear it. (that can happen).
montmorency on 22 August 2012

tractor wrote:

rasta87 wrote:

"qué estás haciendo" (tu)

Just curious: Isn't estás the form they'd use with vos as well?

It is, it's true. But I would say that with verbs that don't have a different vos conjugation, the default understanding
is 'tú', otherwise they would say 'vos estás...'.
rasta87 on 22 August 2012

Just curious: Isn't estás the form they'd use with vos as well?

No... that's not true... or that's true sometimes :)

In Latin America, where 'vos' means directly 'tú', it's true because the conjugation is then the same. But in Spain, where 'vos' is another tier of the politeness building, it isn't. Let me conjugate them all:

Tú estás Usted está Vos estáis
Vosotros estáis Ustedes están Vos estáis

In Spain, the first column shows the common speech. The second one is just a way to address someone you haven't met before, especially if he/she is well known or old. It's not used if he/she is a kid or someone "you are supposed to know", as the teacher of your children. So it's quite polite indeed, but not rare. 'Vos', however, is extremely polite. It's the way used when a director or a writer want to depict a dialogue between someone and Your Royal Highness (Vuestra alteza real) or de like in the Middle Age, and similiar situations. Note that 'Vuestra alteza real' is the 'vos' form. Otherwise, it would be 'Tu alteza real' (with 'tú') or 'Su alteza real' (with 'usted').

EDIT: I've corrected in the last sentence the form of "vos". I can't believe I wrote it wrong, sorry!
Dagane on 27 August 2012

montmorency wrote:

But a question about German usage: I think you have the same problem as we have: you
don't really have a "Monsieur" that you can use in a fairly neutral way do you?

I've never heard Germans (and I was never taught to) say: "Guten Morgen Mein Herr", for
example, although I presume it is technically correct to do so. Public speakers have
the set phrase "Meine Damen und Herren", just like our "Ladies and Gentlemen", but
that's different.

And waiters have set phrases like "die Herrschaften" don't they? Again, that's a little
different, and I don't think I've heard "Mein Herr" even there.

EDIT@Josquin: Or did you mean people will use "Herr" on its own (with no family
name) in direct address? e.g. "Guten Morgen Herr". ?

Sorry that it has taken me so long to answer. I have read your post only now.

"Guten Morgen, mein Herr/meine Dame" would be possible to say although it's not very common and rather formal. You could also say "Guten Morgen, der Herr/die Dame", but that's either rather formal or a bit provocative -- depends on how you say it. Younger people can be addressed with "junger Mann" or "(junges) Fräulein" although "Fräulein" as an official address has been abolished quite a while ago. I think the most usual way is to say nothing at all: "Guten Morgen!" Or you could ask: "Guten Morgen, Herr...?" -- "Meier." -- "Guten Morgen, Herr Meier!"

No, I didn't mean people would use "Herr" on it's own. That's not possible -- except if you're talking to God: "Herr, erhöre mein Flehen!". ;) I rather meant that if your name is Hans Meier, everybody except your friends and family (and maybe some colleagues and neighbours or so) will call you "Herr Meier" and not "Hans". And everybody will say "Sie" and not "du" and letters will start with "Sehr geehrter Herr Meier" and end with "Mit freundlichen Grüßen". Sometimes, I have the feeling formality was invented in Germany -- together with bureaucracy, bourgeoisie, and negativity.

Okay, enough clichés, but that's how you address people in German.
Josquin on 28 August 2012

OK thanks Josquin. That's more or less the situation as I thought it to be.
And so (to sum up) no, you don't have a more or less neutral term (like the French
"Monsieur") that can be used on its own with no surname, as a polite, but not "servile"
form of direct address, just as we don't (for practical purposes, except in a few
restricted circumstances).

Interestingly though, although hardly anyone expects to be directly addressed as "Mr"
any more (at least after about 20 seconds acquaintance), people with "titles" (like
"Sir" (i.e. knights or baronets) or "Lords" certainly do expect it to be used!

I suppose this is only fair. It's a sign of appreciation of the amount of money they
paid for it, oops, I mean the hard work and devotion to the country that earned it for
them. :-)))

montmorency on 28 August 2012

Dagane wrote:

Note that 'Su alteza real' is the 'vos' form. Otherwise, it would be 'Tu alteza real' (with 'tú') or
'Vuestra alteza real' (with 'usted').

Grammatically, "su" is the possessive adjective that corresponds to "usted" and "vuestro" the possesive adjective
that corresponds to "vos"(*), so you should have:

tú –> Tu Alteza Real (I doubt anyone would actually say this.)
vos –> Vuestra Alteza Real
usted / el rey / la reina / el príncipe –> Su Alteza Real

(*) Not the Latin American "vos", but the "vos reverencial".
tractor on 28 August 2012

tractor wrote:

Dagane wrote:

Note that 'Su alteza real' is the 'vos' form. Otherwise, it would be 'Tu alteza real' (with 'tú') or
'Vuestra alteza real' (with 'usted').

I just wanted to add that "usted" comes from "Vuestra Merced" (Your Mercy) and therefore pronouns, verbs etc. will be in 3rd person singular. During the Middle Ages I think it was common practice in most European countries to address kings and noblemen in third person, using formulas like Vuestra Merced, or in English, Your Grace, Your Highness, Your Excellency etc. You hear a lot of that in the series "The Tudors".
Ogrim on 28 August 2012

montmorency wrote:

I only use the title to get better seats at the theatre, on aircraft and in restaurants and I don't expect anybody to call me 'Your Grace' any longer. How anachronistic is that......

maydayayday on 28 August 2012

I have changed the forms of "vos" and "usted" in my previous message. I promise I had a flash telling me that was wrong when I went to bed!! But waking up and turning the computer on again didn't worth :). By the way, Tractor, you have explained it fine.

I also thought about other 'vos' usage and I remembered that it's used sometimes in other situations, but all of them are extremely formal and ancient. One example is "vuestra merced" (relatively spreaded). In an ancient but not necessary too 'high' situation, also "vuestra hermosura" (formerly "vuestra beldad"), "vuestra presencia", "vuestro interés", and so on and on.

In conclusion, it's a form confined mainly to the ancient literature and to some dialogues in modern films and books which narrates ancient histories and fantasy stories.
Dagane on 28 August 2012

numerodix wrote:

I'm not a big fan of politeness. I think a lot of the time it's about
showing respect
that you don't actually feel.

It weirds me out sometimes when people call me meneer.

I agree, and I get called this all the time.
tarvos on 28 August 2012

Probably this is a cultural thing, since we Brazilians tend to be friendly to everyone from the start and address everyone with "você" (except for the elderly), but I feel reaaaaally uncomfortable using the the Russian polite form "вы" to address my in-laws.
My wife says it's right to do so, but still, it's like a red alert goes off in my brain shouting "O-V-E-R-L-Y P-O-L-I-T-E".

I'll probably get used to it, but I think it's really funny that I have this "internal" reaction.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, we usually address people with "você", but if you go to a bank or a restaurant, the attendant/waiter will most likely address you with "o senhor" or "a senhora", which is the same we use with elders. That might be risky though, because it implies you're calling the person "old". =P
fabriciocarraro on 28 August 2012

Ogrim wrote:

French: The “vous” is still very much the norm in France, and you would never address a stranger (e.g. a shop attendant or a waiter) with “tu”. However, I do feel that there is a slight tendency for younger people to switch to “tu” more rapidly than what was maybe the norm some years ago. My approach is that I address everyone with “vous” and only switch to “tu” if they invite me to do so.

One thing that would be interesting to develop is how "tu"/"vous" (and other equivalents in other languages) is used on the Internet.

Generally in forums, and in most communities, the familiar form is the norm. Therefore it is more and more frequent to meet people (on the Internet, then possibly IRL) without ever using the formal pronoun to talk to them. Is it also the same in other languages?
FELlX on 28 August 2012

FELlX wrote:

Generally in forums, and in most communities, the familiar form is the norm. Therefore it is more and more frequent to meet people (on the Internet, then possibly IRL) without ever using the formal pronoun to talk to them. Is it also the same in other languages?

Yes, I've never used the formal approach on the internet, even when e-mailing my former and current bosses.
fabriciocarraro on 28 August 2012

FELlX wrote:

It depends. On HTLAL and other forums, I would always use "du", but on some more official pages like newspapers (FAZ, Süddeutsche) or Amazon.de, people tend to use "Sie".
Josquin on 29 August 2012

On the Lingvoforum, where I’m banned now, they call everyone «вы», until a person asks to
be called «ты».
But on other forums it is not the case.
Марк on 29 August 2012

Josquin wrote:

FELlX wrote:

It depends. On HTLAL and other forums, I would always use "du", but on some more official pages like newspapers (FAZ, Süddeutsche) or Amazon.de, people tend to use "Sie".

This seems to be the case on Russian sites as well. Perhaps I'm a little old-fashioned, but I would go a little further in using Вы/Sie. I don't recall ever posting anything in Russian on this forum, but if I did I would prefer to use the polite form, because I view my participation in this community as a "scholarly pursuit", and also because many of the regulars here seem to be older than me. Even on forums dedicated to my more trivial hobbies I hesitate to use the familiar form unless I know for a fact that the person I'm addressing isn't much older than me and/or is okay with it.

As for Japanese language websites, I just adjust my politeness level to how the other people on the thread are writing, since in places like YouTube comment threads the politeness levels can vary depending on the kind of video that is being discussed. Now that I look at my last post on the Japanese thread (let's see if I can make this link correctly - http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=5211&TPN=13#384338 - here ), I'm not sure if I wrote it in a consistent style. Most of it is in 丁寧語 (polite language), the quote of my "thoughts" is in plain language (I meant to make it sound somewhat silly and cartoonish and it wasn't really addressing the audience, so that was intentional), while the last phrase, the Japanese translation of "The rest is history", ends in である, a form that is formal, but not polite. The latter style is more common in newspapers and encyclopedias - "serious" writings that aren't addressed to anyone in particular. I assumed that 残りは歴史である was a stock phrase, like its English equivalent, but now I'm wondering if I should have used であります to keep the style consistent.
vonPeterhof on 29 August 2012

FELlX wrote:

Ogrim wrote:

French: The “vous” is still very much the norm in France,
and you would never address a stranger (e.g. a shop attendant or a waiter) with “tu”.
However, I do feel that there is a slight tendency for younger people to switch to “tu”
more rapidly than what was maybe the norm some years ago. My approach is that I address
everyone with “vous” and only switch to “tu” if they invite me to do so.

One thing that would be interesting to develop is how "tu"/"vous" (and other
equivalents in other languages) is used on the Internet.

Generally in forums, and in most communities, the familiar form is the norm. Therefore
it is more and more frequent to meet people (on the Internet, then possibly IRL)
without ever using the formal pronoun to talk to them. Is it also the same in other
languages?

I've noticed that in German classes held in the UK over the years (at least in
reasonably advanced ones), the English people all insist on using the "du" form, and I
sometimes get the impression that the native speaking teachers don't fully approve, but
they realise that the cultural norms are a bit different here, and let it pass. One
year, the teacher asked the class at the beginning what they wanted to use, and of
course everyone said "du" except the man sitting next to me, who said quite reasonably,
that he wanted to practice the polite forms, because that's what he'd have to use in
Germany most of the time, so we compromised on using one form before the break, and the
other form after the break. Well, that was in theory. But it fell apart almost
immediately, and we were all "du"-ing each other as usual! .

montmorency on 29 August 2012

I've always wondered if English "you" was only a form of "Mr/Ms" with the same form as in 2nd plural or it meant that English language 'treats people less official'. Luckily, I had an opportunity to see it in Macedonia since we had classes with several women from Australia. And they were always telling ти instead of ви.

If it comes to Polish, it seems to be very official since we have special forms Pan & Pani - a form of 2nd plural referring to the current Pan & Pani has gone long, long, long time ago (maybe except some local forms, but now even in the very rural areas they seem to be extremely archaic)
prz_ on 29 August 2012

Just an interesting Bulgarian pop-folk music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJYtw90Cj_Y - video I
stumbled upon in youtube. The whole basis of the song is that the singer is telling the man she
is singing to to refer to her in the informal "ти" in an effort to get closer to him. :)

Edit: fixed the link
Kartof on 03 September 2012

prz_ wrote:

If it comes to Polish, it seems to be very official since we have special forms Pan & Pani - a form of 2nd plural referring to the current Pan & Pani has gone long, long, long time ago (maybe except some local forms, but now even in the very rural areas they seem to be extremely archaic)

I loved being addressed as Pani in Poland! Makes you feel respected :D
Serpent on 03 September 2012

FELlX wrote:

Ogrim wrote:

Here is an interesting opinion piece from The Guardian which addresses the decline of "vous" in French: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/10/france-t u-vous-distinction-twitter-generation

Ogrim on 10 September 2012

montmorency wrote:

And so (to sum up) no, you don't have a more or less neutral term (like the French
"Monsieur") that can be used on its own with no surname, as a polite, but not "servile"
form of direct address, just as we don't (for practical purposes, except in a few
restricted circumstances).

When you see someone dropping their purse and you want to address them, you say "Entschuldigen Sie bitte" - or, if you feel adventurous, "Hallo, Sie!" (but that might come across not-so-polite)
atama warui on 04 October 2012

I didn't know an equivalent of "excuse me" when I was in Germany for the first time, so I had to use English... Embarrassing :D

What about Portugal btw? The forms o senhor/a senhora always seemed incredibly formal to me... Can even você be too informal sometimes? Never been to Portugal so it's kinda hard to judge.
Serpent on 04 October 2012

Serpent wrote:

Yes, o senhor/a senhora is very formal. I'm still unsure when it would be 'correct' to use você. I get the feeling many Portuguese don't like this pronoun, something which seems to be confirmed on http://www.learningportuguese.co.uk/language/verbs-usage-of- different-persons.html - this forum . Instead of using o senhor/a senhora você people often prefer to use the person's first name along with the definite article.

eg, (Talking directly to José) 'O José já terminou o relatório?'
Have you finished the report (José)?
stelingo on 04 October 2012

Thanks:)

Quote:

Relatively to você, many people dislike being called so (they consider it rude, inappropriate), preferring the omission of the subject, like "Prefere bananas ou maçãs?" instead of "Você prefere...?".

Funny, to me this basically means você is there but omitted :) I guess the two options kind of merged in my head.
Serpent on 05 October 2012

Ogrim wrote:

The topic for this post is about the use of different forms for
addressing a person or persons, i.e. the distinction between “polite” and “familiar”
pronouns. English has not made such a distinction for centuries, where it is actually
the old polite form which has replaced the Old English “thou”. However, in in many
languages there are polite and familiar forms.

The challenge is to use the forms correctly, and here the situation varies greatly from
language to language and country to country. I have therefore made an attempt to
summarise my own observations in languages and countries I know. However, I really look
forward to receiving input from other members and stand to be corrected if I am
mistaken.

Norwegian: In my mother tongue, although the distinction exists (familiar “du” and
polite “De”), the polite form is not used any more (except maybe by some really old and
conservative persons). Everyone says “du” to everyone.

French: The “vous” is still very much the norm in France, and you would never address a
stranger (e.g. a shop attendant or a waiter) with “tu”. However, I do feel that there
is a slight tendency for younger people to switch to “tu” more rapidly than what was
maybe the norm some years ago. My approach is that I address everyone with “vous” and
only switch to “tu” if they invite me to do so.

German: I am less familiar with the situation in Germany, but from my regular visits
there it seems to be similar to France. I would love to have more information on this.

Spanish: The situation in Spain has developed enormously over the last 20 years or so.
The polite from “usted” is still used, but less and less. Obviously, in formal and
official settings it will be used. No journalist will address the Spanish Prime
Minister as “tú”. However, it is quite normal that a waiter or a taxi driver will talk
to you directly in the familiar form. In Latin America I have the impression that tú is
still used in a much more restrictive way (not to mention that in the plural, “Ustedes”
has replaced “vosotros”). In Spain I find it can sometimes be difficult to decide which
form to use, but my advice would be that it is better to use “usted” if unsure – some
people my still get offended if you address them directly with “tú” the first time you
speak with them. However, you may expect them to reply to you using the familiar form.

Russian: I am still a beginner in Russian, so here I would ask for input. I do have the
impression that the polite form is the norm.

I will leave it at this for the time being, and as said, I look forward to
contributions and to learn about the situation in other languages and countries.

In Hungarian there is a strictly differenced system of 3 levels:

- 1. - Polite/formal. "Ön" or "maga" used with verb in the 3rd person (or
"Önök"/"maguk" in plural). (Ön/önök, maga/maguk can be omitted.) This is the normal way
of speaking.
- 2. - Polite for children. This is with the auxialiary verb "tetszik" (it means "be
pleased" or "like") + infinitive. This is used when children speak to adults. Also can
be used by adults in rare cases when speaking to very old persons.
- 3. - Informal/familiar. "Te" ("ti" in plural) used with verb in the 2nd person.
("Te"/"ti" can be omitted.) This is between friends, in the family. It is becoming more
and more widespread. Younger people tend to use this form even when they meet each
other for the first time. In work too, colleagues tend to use the informal form
inmediately between themselves. (However this is not the case when speaking to the
"boss". The boss first has to give a permission "talk to me informally".) In the
Hungarian internet the informal form is used in 99 % of the cases, for example in
discussion forums, blogs, but not in official emails or official sites.

Some interesting facts.

For children it is problem to decide when they can switch from the 2nd form to the 1st
form for speaking to adults. Using the 1st form means "I am not a child any more, I am
equal to you". A 12 years old will use the 2nd form, however a 17 years old will use
the 1st form. An adult may consider inpolite when a too young child speaks to him/her
in the 1st form. However it can be inpolite too when a young girl speaks to a young
woman, and the girls still uses the 2nd form (this means "I am young, you are old").

For speaking to God it is always used the INFORMAL form. Also historically speaking to
the monarch the informal form was mostly used.

Actually I work for a British-Gibraltarian company. We have a website in Hungarian too.
In the website we use the informal form to show we are a "friendly company". However
when talking to a customer over the phone or when writing a personal email to a
customer we use the formal form always. Even if the customer writes an email using the
informal form, we respond using the polite form.

Interesting: when two people started to speak using the informal form, it is extremely
inpolite if one of them switches back to the polite form. It shows hostility.

Persons of the same sex tend to use the informal form more quickly than persons of the
opposite sex. Two women of similar age will start speaking informally quickly, however
a man will not speak informally to a woman, until the woman doesnt ask "lets speak
informally". But this is changing. Now starting to use the informal form is getting
easier and quicker.

Speaking must be equal, it means two persons speaking use the same form. Exception: the
2nd form, it is used by children to adults, and the adults respond using the 3rd form.
Also historically there were used inequal forms for example in relations between
landlords and servants. Now this is considered rude. In the Communist period this
happened sometimes: the policemen speaking to a citizen, the policeman using informal
form, and the citizen the polite form.

In the family the oldest tradition was using only the polite form, the informal form
was reserved only when addressing children. Even wife and husband spoke to each other
using the formal way. Also son/daugther to his/her father/mother. Now this is extremely
rare. Now the most widespread is to use the informal form between all generations.
Exceptions are made usually for fathers-in-law, mothers-in-laws, normally one use the
formal way when speaking to them. However this is getting changed too. There were many
changes in different generations. My mother spoke to her grandmother using only the
formal way, even when she was 45 years old and the grandmother was 90. In the same time
I - being then 20 years old - talked to the same person, my great-grandmother using the
informal way.

Ask if something is not clear.

maxval on 31 October 2012

Teango wrote:

When my wife asked her parents what they'd like me to use, they seemed very embarrassed and
tried to swiftly change the topic. After a little persistence, they simply suggested whichever he feels most
comfortable with, with a grinning side-glance to each other. At the time I guessed they simply didn't want to make
waves with their other son-in-law. So I incorporated a mixture of both, which didn't seem to matter much in the
end, as I had the Russian language skills of a dazed toddler anyhow!

In-laws can be awkward enough in one's native language, but I always feel especially awkward because my father-
in-law wants me to use the "du" form with him and my mother-in-law "Sie". This makes sense in the context of
the family dynamics (guess which one likes me), but I, only speaking English natively, am not used to having
underlying sentiments which usually aren't discussed in the open codified into the language.
nonneb on 01 November 2012

there is definitely polite forms in japanese... and before I came to japan, my inner dialogue just played around with
the forms da, desu, degozaimasu, etc, but since Ive been here, I've noticed I am developing an intuitive feeling for
when I should use each level... at least in the parameters I am familiar with, and the usage with the social group by
which I am surrounded...

my main thought today seems to be to value my developed intuition in my TL... thats all Im really trying to say
zerrubabbel on 04 November 2012

There are languages that sound more polite than others to the ear because of the tones. On the other hand any
language can be impolite if you use it in the wrong context. Found that out the other day at a local hair salon. The
owner(s) are Chinese. 2 hairdressers were busy cutting hairs inside when 4 people walked in casually. In the
middle of winter it would seem odd for them to be standing at the entrance coming in 1 minute and out the next.

They explained in English they just had a car accident and were waiting for the police to arrive to file a report. The
hairdressers asked them in English: "What do you want?" several times instead of: "May I help you?" It looked like
their English is acceptable but their choice of words weren't customer-friendly. The 4 people at the entrance was
upset their vehicles were damaged already but didn't want to stay outside in the cold. They thought that the
hairdressers sounded rude. The hairdressers asked the 4 people to move to the side of the room and not to open
and close the door constantly to let the cold air in. Soon after the 4 left. They thought the hairdressers sounded
unfriendly and was about to get into a major argument.
shk00design on 01 February 2014

Josquin wrote:

You would address every unknown grown-up with "Sie". Younger people tend to offer the
"du" faster than older people. University students always address each other with "du".
Moreover, in rural areas, where "everybody knows everybody", the "du" is more common.
Saying "Sie" would be regarded very impersonal in this case. Working class people tend
to say "du" to each other, too. Formal situations always require the "Sie", though.

I'm hearing a lot more 'du's in Germany than in Austria, and this makes Germans appear
more friendly actually. I'm also hearing more 'Hallo's and 'Tschüss'es there, which
would be regarded quite informal here in Austria.
I know of cases here in Austria where neighbors in a rural area would use 'Sie' their
entire life, and it's not like they don't like each other.
Also, titles are a lot more important than in Germany. Austrians love to be addressed
with their titles, eg. "Herr Magister ...", and we have quite many of them, a lot of
them from back when Austria was still a monarchy.

I guess the situation in Germany is developing a bit faster than in Austria.

edit:
One notable exception: one would use 'du' with everybody as long as both are on a
mountain, eg. while hiking or skiing. No idea why...
daegga on 01 February 2014

Kartof wrote:

When I was in Bulgaria, I was often addressed by waiters, shop assistants and strangers ти, although it's much rarer in Russia (never with waiters or people like that).
Марк on 01 February 2014

In Indonesian the dynamic seems really complicated. My teacher (herself Indonesian, though she hasn't lived there
for several years) taught us that we as foreigners should always use the formal "Anda" (you) and "saya" (I) with
anyone aged over about 14. However, I've recently started interacting with Indonesians (all of whom are aged 18-
26) online and none of them have used "Anda" with me at all (I'm 22). Some prefer to use the informal "kamu" (you)
alongside the formal "saya" (I), while others prefer to use the informal "kamu" (you) and the informal "aku" (I). I
know there are also the highly informal pronouns "lu" (you) and "gue" (I) but these are considered slang and are
apparently only used among close friends.
Eitental on 04 February 2014

I had contact with Polish people and I asked them about this. I learned from them that
they always use "Pani and Pan". It exactly means Mister and Miss and they use it all the
time. They never talk to strangers in form of "you".
In Chinese people use "nin" as a form of Miss and Mister. It's same form for women and
men. Anyway Chinese people always use their family names + profession (even they are
close friends). Sometimes it sounds quite funny when close friends talk to themselves
“Wang laoshi” (it means “teacher Wang”). Another interesting fact is that they usually
use forms such as “brother/sister/aunt/uncle” when they are really close friends.

jamall on 12 March 2014

In greek, younger people of the same age almost never use the polite forms with each other.

But in professional settings, when you talk to older people or older people talking to each other, then the polite forms are used.

Of course, in most cases they are dropped almost immediately, as people encourage each other to use first names= familiar forms. It is generally considered a bit fake to be so formal when same age groups are involved.

When it comes to younger people talking to older people though, you always use the polite forms, even with the first name. Mr John, for example. Unless they specifically ask you to use the familiar forms, which could happen if they feel very young at heart :)

Never use the polite forms if:

You are having a terrible fight. Enough said.

You want to say I love you. "Je vous aime" may sound sweet in french, but it's utterly stupid in greek.

renaissancemedi on 12 March 2014

I was raised to become quite polite. I never use informal to waiters, salesmen and other "service" men. There were times when I actually could (options of being a regular customer in a small shop), and some of salesmen even used informal to me (I'm some kind of high-school girl), but I am still being polite.
Of course I use informal when addressing to people of my age, though if I think that the person is somewhat higher than me (have finished university, for example) I may start with formal approach.
And last, but not the least, is relatives talk. It's almost never clear for me what to use. I'm dancing between formal and informal when I'm talking with my grandparents, I always use formal when talking to one of my aunts and I was jealous that her sons were addressing my parents informal whereas I should've been polite. Damn, I still am, because when I went to my other aunt, I even asked her if I can use "ты", got permission to do it, but kept dancing between polite and informal! Aaargh.
P.S. I also like to use formal for fun :)
Via Diva on 12 March 2014