L2 pseudo-savantness
Printed From: How-to-learn-any-language.com
Forum Name: General discussion
Forum Discription: Discussion about language learning for people who study languages on their own.
URL: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40403
Printed Date: 21 July 2021 at 4:24pm
Posted By: 1e4e6
Subject: L2 pseudo-savantness
Date Posted: 02 May 2015 at 11:11pm
I was unsure how to phrase the title, but what I menat is that in a few of my
languages, I find that there is the weird phenomenon that I have more problems talking
and writing about simpler things than the more complicated things. I can read
scientific articles and listen to university style lectures but a conversation between
family members is a bit more difficult than it should be.
An extreme example would be someone who can write a PhD-level thesis on evolutionary
genetic drift during the existence of Gondwanaland and Laurasia or about supercritical
carbon dioxide and its useful applications in energy generation, but would be unable
to order a coffee in a café. I am at neither end, but somewhere in the middle, except
that the more complicated stuff somehow seems a bit easier than the traditionally
"easier" stuff.
Does this happen to anyone often, and what is usually remedied for this? I had some
classmates in university whose native language was not English and could do all of
their academic stuff with more or less ease, but to ask them what time it is or how
they were doing, and they had problems answering. I thought that it was a bit weird
but never dwelled on the issue further.
|
Replies:
I think of this phenomenon is the result of learning primarily through technical or scholarly material mixed with
a bit of social phobia. There is also the situational specificity of small talk and ordering a doughnut skills.
luke on 02 May 2015
|
Maybe it's the languages I've dealt with, but I've always found scholarly texts in my own area of study to be the easiest reading. The jargon is usually quite transparent, and a general familiarity with the topic lets you fill quite large blanks. If you're very familiar with the topic, you can fill very big blanks if there's enough transparent jargon to go by.
One of the first things I ever watched/listened to in Italian was entry level university lectures and I had no problem keeping up. That's without a single formal Italian lesson (with a self-study course or class). At university (BA-MA level) we were expected to be able to work our way through articles written about our thesis topics in a number of foreign languages whether we knew how to say "hello" in those languages or not. I've always thought (because that's been my experience speaking to people who aren't language geeks) there was something of a consensus that academic texts are easier than even children's novels.
Of course, you can also achieve a very limited "higher level" language by choosing not to learn the socialising bit, and practising your language skills by, say, writing about radioactivity. It's not like "basic small talk" magically appears in your head, after all. Even less so if small talk is conducted differently in your native language than in your L2.
eyðimörk on 03 May 2015
|
I think I find it generally easier to discuss meaningful stuff than to have unnecessary conversations or exchanging pleasantries. Less of a language problem, more of a cultural one (like what is expected as an answer). English is an extreme case because I only use it for professional and academic communication (and the odd forum entry of course, but that's writing, that's different). I'm definitely more comfortable with this basic stuff in Norwegian because I've "lived the language", whereas English feels like an artificial means of communication much like Standard German.
daegga on 03 May 2015
|
It's all about different goals and motivations. I know a lot of people who know
English just for their academic duties and I find it offensive to call it "pseudo-
savantness". Yes, as soon as they teach in the language, they should get the active
skills needed (I find them stupid for not doing so and instead shaming our university
in front of foreigners). But a scientist who just needs to write articles in English
may feel no need to learn smalltalk about holidays and hobbies.
Considering this skillset wrong is just as arrogant, in my opinion, as judging
someone's choice of target language or the fact that they prefer reading books over
socializing with natives.
Apart from that: Yes, it is an extremely common phenomenon. The world doesn't learn
English because of warm feelings towards the language. No, they learn the skills they
need for their jobs.
And while I'd say this extreme situation (writing pages of scientific stuff without
being able to properly order a coffee) is pretty English specific, I agree that lots
of advanced stuff tend to be easier in foreign languages than some of the
basic/intermediate issues.
Cavesa on 03 May 2015
|
It depends on the vocabulary you get for free. It's much harder to guess these words in
Mandarin where it's not transparent, than in Italian where it is.
I tend to have skill sets based on how I use languages in my life. I can use Mandarin
very effectively in shops and restaurants for example, and I can have a lot of personal
conversations, but complex meetings are way over my head.
tarvos on 03 May 2015
|
I think part of this has to do with passive/active skills and using the vocabulary you need. I work in an
academic environment so I often meet academics whose written English is impeccable but who speak it far
less impressively. I think the main reason for this is probably lack of practice - when you type something up or
write it down you have time to cover up mistakes by applying the rules you know without anyone noticing in
the end product - speaking does not enable you to cover it up.
The secondary aspect is simply needing to know only the vocabulary you use. For example I know a lot of
technical vocabulary related to computing and maths because that is where my interests and work are
focused. I have very little vocabulary related to biology or chemistry. For example two words I picked up which
I guess would be rather rudimentary but nevertheless did not know of them till I watched a youtube video on
something concerning evolution (and subsequently googled the meaning of the words) are "basal" and
"clade". I suspect I am simply touching the tip of the iceberg in the amount of vocabulary I'd need to dig
deeper into these topics. I just thought of another area where my vocab is lacking but might seem like
something *everyone* should know: home maintenance. It was embarrassingly recent when I first learned the
names for things like a flathead and phillip's head screwdriver. This is because I am not a home maintenance
guy.
The principle applies in reverse as well. You may not be able to make basic chit-chat or do touristy stuff
because you never really used the vocabulary for that stuff much and have forgotten it or never learnt it. I'll
use my mother as an example. She has relatively okay English skills. She can get things done day to day,
watch tv and enjoy movies but if she reads a book it'll be in Serbian. Despite living over here for close to 3
decades, she doesn't know the words for things like body parts, most animals aside from say cats, dogs and
then groupings like fish, lizards, birds etc and pretty much any "technical" vocabulary (from say something
simple like hammers and spanners to computing vocabulary).
I think this is relatively normal as vocabulary kinda exists like little islands. Some islands might seem like
obvious places to go, but in our walk of life we may not really lose anything by not knowing them. For those
with sophisticated vocabularies - they generally need it for work but they are probably not often in the position
to ask about the weather or what food they want to buy.
basica on 03 May 2015
|
I know the feeling: I can handle quite scientific or philosophical stuff in French but sometimes get stuck with basic usage in social or customer situations. I just see it as a consequence of not having immersion or a French-speaking peer group. If I went to a French-speaking country for a few months, these gaps would probably fill themselves in quickly enough.
garyb on 04 May 2015
|
garyb wrote:
I know the feeling: I can handle quite scientific or philosophical
stuff in French but sometimes get stuck with basic usage in social or customer
situations. I just see it as a consequence of not having immersion or a French-
speaking peer group. If I went to a French-speaking country for a few months, these
gaps would probably fill themselves in quickly enough. |
|
|
French is like that. Having studied the structure of the French language and taking
advantage of my fluency in Spanish, I can read journal articles in French, especially
those related to the field of history fluently and without major difficulties. Then I
go and listen to a french music video on youtube, and when I try to read the comments
below the video I am lost and unable to understand basic statements.
rodrigoau on 04 May 2015
|
I think @basica and @garyb have hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to what the language learner has been
exposed to. First of all, the highly colloquial and often slangy spoken language is rarely taught in language classes.
Secondly, most language learners initially have no need for this kind of language. The problem arises, as we see in
the posts here, when the language learner is thrust into situations where there is the need to interact with native
speakers in an informal way.
The solution to this problem is of course massive exposure to speaking with native in informal situations. We have
certainly all noticed that the best speakers of a foreign language are those who have spent time around native
speakers, especially in some form of immersion.
Let's also keep in mind that there is the opposite of the situation described here. It's certainly possible to be at ease
speaking the informal language and not being able to read or write.
s_allard on 04 May 2015
|
tarvos wrote:
It depends on the vocabulary you get for free. It's much harder to guess these words in
Mandarin where it's not transparent, than in Italian where it is.
I tend to have skill sets based on how I use languages in my life. I can use Mandarin very effectively in shops
and restaurants for example, and I can have a lot of personal conversations, but complex meetings are way
over my head. |
|
|
Chinese people would occasionally insert 4-character proverbs into their speech. The frequent use of
proverbs reflect a person's education. And if you are not familiar with a proverb, it's difficult to guess the
meaning unless you know which of the 4 characters are used since there are often different characters that
sound the same. In news broadcast, TV documentaries you often hear different proverbs in use.
There are few Chinese words you find in technical / scientific journal that became common such as ćșć (gene
which is an English loan word). When you go shopping in a supermarket you see ćșć éŁć you know the food
is supposed to be organic (no GMO, free of synthetic fertilizer, pesticide, etc). The more technical words tend
to sound foreign and un-Chinese that you can tell when you hear them. Recently I watched a few history
documentaries in Chinese and heard some new words: éććĄ jÄ«nzĂŹtÇ for an Egyptian pyramid, ćčœæ”ź yĆufĂș for
an UFO and ć°ŒćźćŸ·ćĄ NĂ'ÄndĂ©tÇ for Neanderthal man. Besides the word for pyramid, the other 2 words sound
totally foreign that you wouldn't normally remember them in your Chinese vocabulary.
shk00design on 04 May 2015
|
|