Codified spelling of informal speech
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Forum Name: General discussion
Forum Discription: Discussion about language learning for people who study languages on their own.
URL: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40422
Printed Date: 21 July 2021 at 4:22pm
Posted By: schoenewaelder
Subject: Codified spelling of informal speech
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 1:03pm
Why did the Dutch decide it was necessary to have specific spellings of the
unstressed pronunciations of personal pronouns and articles?
(hij -> he, het -> 't, etc.)
(Similar for French, thought it would be simpler to start with Dutch)
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Replies:
Do you mean similar for English ? Did not - didn't ... but I don't see anything in french ?
I don't know why they do that.
Michel1020 on 09 May 2015
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Good point, I'd forgotten about English. But "didn't" is amost a new word, whereas
"he" really is pretty similar to "hij",
In French there's le -> l' and the insertion of "t" for verb inversion (y a-t-il?)
to reflect spoken speech.
schoenewaelder on 09 May 2015
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In Swedish you have for example en stad - staden, where the latter can also be written as "stan" because this is what most people are using in standard speech. Some day this might be the only official form. The same for verbs - "sa" vs "sade", both are allowed.
If written language stays the same forever, it might one day be too different from the spoken variant. Languages develop. How well can you read Middle English?
In German you see a lot of "nen", especially in online discussion boards (resembling the spoken form of "einen"). This isn't standard, but if enough people decide to use it, it might become standard in the future. (but as long as the same people continue to use it as a replacement for "ein", even though this isn't a phenomenon of spoken language, they will only be regarded as fools)
daegga on 09 May 2015
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What about
wie geht's --- wie geht es
The dutch ze and zij are not 100% the same meaning - it is similar to using yo in Spanish or not using it.
't = het or does not = doesn't - there are no new word here it is 2 correct ways to write the same thing.
For your french examples there are no alternative writings so this is how french is written. Words that take l' don't take le or la and words that take le or la don't take l'. It is very similar to the English a or an.
The same for the french -t- either you use it because that is how french works or you don't use it in other cases because that is how french works in these other cases. There is no freedom here. Y a-t-il exist - y a-il does not exist.
Michel1020 on 09 May 2015
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Hij doesn't have an unstressed form (it remains "hij"). In writing 't is not used, except
for transcribing dialogue. The reason we do this is to accurately reflect how we speak
rather than write formally because if we use the unstressed forms (fairly common) then
this renders a certain nuance that is skipped by using the stressed form of the pronoun.
Unstressing it renders stress on a different part of the sentence and can thus (sometimes
subtly, sometimes not so) change the meaning.
tarvos on 10 May 2015
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Thanks for the explanations. Sorry about the misinformation about "hij/he".
schoenewaelder on 10 May 2015
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Hè! is a word in Dutch by the way, usually expressing surprise or a lack of understanding
of some sort. Hé is an admonishment in the sense of 'hey, don't do that'. But you need
the accents to indicate the pronunciation.
tarvos on 11 May 2015
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