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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Hollow Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States luelinks.netRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6541 days ago 179 posts - 186 votes  Speaks: French*, English*, SpanishB2 Studies: Korean | Message 65 of 140 20 January 2009 at 7:45am | IP Logged | ||
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don't feed the trolls, Maximus
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| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 66 of 140 20 January 2009 at 9:48am | IP Logged | ||
parasitius, are these Chinese people accompanying you to shops your friends? Are you sure they are trying to humiliate you by acting as translator, or are they just using it as an excuse to practice English and show off their skill? What happens if you ask them to please stop?
I've read All Japanese All The Time. I respect Kohei for his accomplishments, and he has a lot of great motivational advice on language learning (everyone learning this language should read his article "Stop Mystifying Japanese"). It is definitely worth a read. I have to disagree with some of his extreme tactics, however. I understand his goal was to learn Japanese as quickly as possible in order to attend graduate school and work, but I think there is something wrong with idea of only having Japanese friends, only listening to Japanese music, etc, etc. So your immersion will slow down a bit if you sometimes speak to people in English, and you won't learn quite as rapidly, but is it worth shutting yourself off to that degree? Also, I'm not sure I follow the idea that foreigners trying to speak English with you is always a sign of submission on your part. I think musigny had it right with their comment about aiming for harmony. I have been aggressively bullied by foreigners before while traveling (in my case for money not my language). I do sympathize with how scary that can be, especially being female. But if you approach people with the desire to dominate and think of it as a competition, you are fostering aggressive behavior. People will either feel intimidated or they will press back. Edited by Starfallen on 20 January 2009 at 11:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Goindol Senior Member United States Joined 6076 days ago 165 posts - 203 votes | Message 67 of 140 20 January 2009 at 11:13am | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for summarizing your position succinctly. But I'm not certain why you're waxing deontological -- please, I'm a simple person unversed in these things. Nor am I at all trying to argue about the merits or the metaphysics of intent. Again, here are your words: "Are we talking about the same phenomena, AT ALL? I'm in this filthy country for just one reason, the language." You admit that you're in the country for one reason. By your own admission and logic, your presence there constitutes an action: being a 24/7 language parasite. So I remain unconvinced that you aren't guilty of hypocrisy when you accuse the Chinese of banditry or whatever you call it. This isn't to say that I think you need to indulge them at all by giving them free language lessons, but I'm also unsure why you're framing it in terms of morality rather than one of etiquette. Whatever the case, I'll leave that one alone lest I unleash another torrent of angry verbiage. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Goindol Senior Member United States Joined 6076 days ago 165 posts - 203 votes | Message 68 of 140 20 January 2009 at 11:18am | IP Logged | ||
I skimmed the first part of your extended logorrhea. You're, of course, free to write whatever you like, but I regard lengthy, poorly written, and unfocused drivel as a banditry on my own time. If you want me to respond to your points, then I implore you to make them clearly and directly. Otherwise we can both go our merry ways. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6374 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes Speaks: English* | Message 69 of 140 20 January 2009 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | ||
Yeah. This is basically what I thought. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6000 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 70 of 140 20 January 2009 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | ||
Haha... in one case it was a friend that I originally met long before my Mandarin was up to par, and though he heard me converse extensively with his monolingual girlfriend in Mandarin it seems it just won't register in his brain that things have changed. Another time it was with coworkers where I'm stuck between being too close to tell them off but too far to actually explain the situation. I once recall a Japanese person explaining the difficulties of life in the US because you actually had to say "no" if you don't want to do something, and it's apparently painful for Japanese to get that word out. At the time I thought "how stupid! just get over it". But now I have huge pity on them because I understand it. In Japan you needn't say no because your yes meaning no will be understood. In the US you need to say no or something rather close, but that will suffice. In China you need to say no until you face is blood red and the person finally accepts "no" because it looks like you will kill them if they don't. This is hard for me to do, because in English I always prefer the softest refusal possible. ("Oh I have some stuff to do today, sorry... " ) Yeah objectively I doubt they are trying to humiliate me in actuality, its just a challenge for me to get myself to explain things because nothing subtle or seemingly totally obvious by my standard is ever understood here. (Like when I use passive aggressive frowns and silence to show I don't want to talk to someone, they tell me I'm shy and keep following me and harassing me.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 71 of 140 21 January 2009 at 11:06am | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah sounds to me like there is a bit of a cultural barrier there as far as communicating what makes you feel uncomfortable. Could be they are just not reading your subtle hints and don't mean any harm. Imagine you are Japanese having to spit out that word "no". I know it's harder with coworkers, and even if some of them really are being rude on purpose, it's also possible they just don't realize you're annoyed. I have some Chinese acquaintances here at home. They do speak pretty good English, but not great. They do frequently agree with me and say things like "yes!" even though they look visibly confused by what I just said. Heck, I sometimes do the same thing when people whisper to me from across the room and I can't hear them...I smile and nod my head, lol.
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| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5840 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 72 of 140 22 January 2009 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems reasonable that the experiences that people have in Japan vs China are very different!
From a Western perspective, the Japanese are extremely polite; it's unlikely that an average Japanese should push himself on you trying to speak English unless he was very drunk. My experience is that the average person on the street is willing to say a few words in English if absolutely necessary. Many people are awkward about their English being poor. My problem was more with getting people to speak English with me than the other way around... Chinese and in particulary mainland Chinese have a totally different view on things and I can see that they might act in a different way from the Japanese... I haven't got much experience in mainland China, but I sure had Chinese people ask me pretty personal questions or even pull my (blonde) hair etc. But it's their country and it's up to them how they want to treat foreigners in their own country. The way they see it, this is normal behaviour and not rude. Who says that Western standards are the standards to judge everybody elses behaviour by? It's true what Parasitius said about Singaporeans, they would not expect a Caucasian to speak Chinese, but I think they are pleasantly surprised when somebody does speak it to a useful level... Some Caucasians there actually do! I checked and =http://www.mandarin.org.sg]"Speak Mandarin" Campaign is still running. Not sure that it worked very well. Singlish takes a while to get used to and it helps if you know some basic Chinese grammar... What about Koreans - what's the situation with English there? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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