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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6032 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes  5 sounds | Message 129 of 140 29 November 2009 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | ||
He acknowledges your French is comprehensible, so maybe this is not banditry but an attempt to make it easier for you. Although, it would have been better if he had carried on in French. Language banditry is probably a very annoying thing for native English speakers, I try to avoid that sort of behaviour. However, I have to admit, sometimes I engage in small-talk mainly for the sake of training my language skills. I'm still fairly introverted so hopefully my tactic is not too pushy. From what I gather Chinese and Japanese people are far worse ;). Edited by Sennin on 29 November 2009 at 4:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5836 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 130 of 140 29 November 2009 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the whole premise of this thread is wrong!
These people are NOT "bandits" in any sense of the word! They are not props in a language learning lab. They just want to practice the language they spent years on in school... Skills in which may be crucial for their chances of promotion at work, etc. Anyway, this rarely happens to me and my French is no doubt terrible compared with Sennin's... Personally I wouldn't mind it if the French spoke a bit more English than they do. To deny people a brief opportunity to practice English is just petty! For an native English speaker it's OPTIONAL to learn their language - but for them it is serious business; their future might depend on it. Be a sport! There are quite enough old people, lazy people, kids and poorly educated people to "practice" the local language on. The idea of somebody coming up uninvited and starting to babble in English is of course another thing - it's never happened to me - apart from people trying to sell somemthing. But if that happened, that's where I'd draw the line. But this could only happen somewhere where you looked really different anyway. I'm sure it can't be common. Assuming Sennin's French is sufficient to buy train tickets it seems a bit silly to switch language - but on the other hand, what's the harm... I think the rule of thumb is: If you are addressed in one language, and you happen to know that language, then respond in it! If not, politely convey that you don't speak it. (As for the Japanese, they cannot be accused of this - the biggest problem there is that people giggle and get embarrassed after saying 3 words in English - or refuse for fear of looking silly.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5519 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 131 of 140 29 November 2009 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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One irritating aspect of language banditry is that the few words that they know in English are among the first words you learnt in their language, so it is very seldom helpful, even when you are quite new to the language.
If you're not actually from an English speaking country, it is very easy to just say that you don't speak any English. I just pretend I don't understand, ask them in their language what they are talking about. If you can convince them that you don't actually speak English, and you obviously speak at least a bit of their language, you've won. Of course, if you don't mind telling them that you are Dutch or something, even English and Americans can use this trick. I was travelling in China with a Japanese girl, and it was extremely difficult to convince people that they should communicate with me, that she didn't speak a word of Chinese. I sometimes had to raise my voice before they got it. And obviously the menfolk would look at me as if I had come to steal their women. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Clintaroo Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6869 days ago 189 posts - 201 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Tagalog, Indonesian | Message 132 of 140 29 November 2009 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | ||
This post pretty much summed up my experiences in Japan. I can't recall anybody coming up to me and pestering me for an English lesson or anything like that. 99% of Japanese were more than happy to converse in Japanese, and while I would be spoken to in English by train station attendants and so on, (at Kyoto Station, where a lot of tourists who don't speak Japanese at all pass through) I didn't really mind. If a Japanese person's English was obviously far superior to my Japanese, we would use English most of the time. I had a few friends who had grown up in New Zealand and the USA, so their English abilities in regards to my Japanese were no contest. From reading here and around the internet, Japan does seem to have some kind of language banditry reputation, but I've got to say I rarely experienced it. I've read a lot of stories about foreigners in China who fall for the old "let's go and drink whiskey" scam and the bill is naturally outrageous with the foreigner expected to pay for it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6032 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 133 of 140 30 November 2009 at 12:08am | IP Logged | ||
You mean FuroraCeltica's French, I was quoting her ;p. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5996 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 134 of 140 30 November 2009 at 4:03am | IP Logged | ||
The comment makes sense out of context only I'm afraid :) Surely wherever I live there will be a different set of advantages and disadvantages, and I don't anticipate the 'new' set I'd get living elsewhere would necessarily make me happier overall. Where do monolingual English speakers even come in to this? When one is accosted by the bandit types, they often won't be so polite to care if you even can speak English but will simply insist on it no matter what because you look foreign. Though I've tried, I've not been able to observe any specific pattern of behavior with regard to those having previously encountered a monolingual English speaker, local language speaking foreigner, and those who've never before encountered a foreigner. I've had people of all three types try to bandit me, and I've had people of all three types address my in natural Chinese from the first second they saw me. I'm extremely certain the behavior rarely has any specific connection to a give person's previous experiences. (Obvious exception being an actual tourist area / tourist ticket counter etc.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5996 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 135 of 140 30 November 2009 at 4:45am | IP Logged | ||
Have you actually experienced 'language banditry'? To be honest, I don't think anyone who hasn't personally experienced it should promote their opinion about the topic very strongly. It is a VERY DEHUMANIZING EXPERIENCE!!! You won't realize that until you taste the Chinese version first hand. To me your post reads to a degree (don't misread me here, I mean in style) like a stereotypical liberal piece concerned with the plight of the terrorist or murderer's conditions in prison which says nothing about the plight of his victims and their families. *I* have been address many, many times not as a human being but as a walking talking opportunity. The person speaking to me left no room for mistaking the fact that he couldn't care less about the contents of my speech (giving fake and totally inappropriate responses indicating probably 10% listening comprehension like laughing or random use of "yes" "uh-hu") but only that he be able to continue using me as long as possible. If I accosted a doctor on the street on his way to work to demand medical advice for the sake of my family's health (as you say it is okay for English learners to accost me for the sake of their careers), pretending I wanted to be his friend but making it blatantly obvious I was only concerned with what he could do for me -- I'm guessing few people would condemn the doctor for going to great lengths to avoid me. Meanwhile when it comes to language somehow all the rules of logical are flipped on their head. Why is that? 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5581 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 136 of 140 03 December 2009 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | ||
"There are quite enough old people, lazy people, kids and poorly educated people to "practice" the local language on." I dont want this to be interpreted as a personal attack against you, but you really come across as conceited when you post things like this. It seems that you look down upon people who dont speak English or have no interest in learning English. So you think that just because some people dont care to make an effort to learn one certain language of a country at the other end of the globe which bears no relation to their own lives they are "lazy people" or "poorly educated"? As I read your comments I cannot help but get the impression that you look down on non-English speakers as second class citizens. You seem to think that everyone should learn English, but for all you know these "lazy people" who have zero interest in English just might want to enjoy their lives doing something elso other than learning English. They just might want to spend their time playing basket ball, volley ball, singing karaoke or doing some other activity which makes them feel happiness. Most of these "lazy people" will propable never even need to use English and will get by just fine without it. So why should everyone be so bothered about it? Cordelia, non-english speakers are by no means inferior or less educated people. Please try to understand this. You really seem to be unable to put yourself in other people`s positions and look at things from another person`s point of view. I think Parasitius alluded to this perfectly with his terrorist-murderer prison condition analogy. Firstly you seem to think that English speakers should always feel obliged to speak English. But why? What if they dont want to speak English? What if they dislike English? What if they dislike Anglophone culture? I know that I for one dislike English. It just doesnt suit me. My spoken English is odd. I can even go as far as saying that I dispise the sound of English (be it British English or American English). The other day on a Japanese bus I heard a British woman and an American women having a conversation in English. It was just so irritating to listen to. Just the sound of it! I quickly tuned out of that conversation and listened into the Japanese conversations around me. It felt so soothing to hear those beautiful Japanese female voices and the beautiful Kansai expressions around me. So why do you think I should feel obliged to speak a language I find so irritating? Similarly since experiencing life abroad I have come to realise that I feel a sense of dislike towards my own country and culture. I dont want anything to do with my own country or culture including the use of its language, in my case English. So why should I have to converse in it? Also why should a native English speaker be willing to speak English with someone who assumes that all white people automatically know English? For a start their attitudes are ignorant and rude. Why should I feel compelled to speak English with someone who bluntly starts a conversation with "whea you furomu"? (Why ask if you are already convinced that I am American?! What if my answer to that question was "No entiendo. Yo hablo espanol"?) Cordelia, I understand your feelings regarding positive attitudes towards enthusiastic learners. You seem to think that we should feel obliged to let these people use us just because they are eager to "practice". However, you totally ignore the fact that anyone wanting to practice a language (especially something as global as English) can easily find language partners via the wonders of modern technological advancement such as the internet. In the 21st century you can just chat with someone at any side of the globe in any language at the push of a button. This is especially true of hitech countries like Japan. This means that with these technological wonders available they have no excuse to accost native English speakers and we should feel no guilt in being unwilling to speak a certain language. In this day and age there is just no excuse to accost foreigners in your own country for the sake of practicing languages. I suggest the internet thing to foreigners interested in English conversation. Here I have put myself in their shoes. This is what I would do if I was a non-english speaker trying to learn English. Cordelia, you seem to lack the willingness to view matters from the perspectives of others. Please try to put yourself in other people`s shoes before you argue against someone/some group. Edited by hombre gordo on 03 December 2009 at 2:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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