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James29’s Spanish Log | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5857 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 361 of 668 02 February 2014 at 4:27am | IP Logged | ||
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AmyinBrooklyn: I can give you an answer based on my experience. I did the entire Platiquemos course over about 9 months, with about a 2 month gap in the middle (so 7 months of about 3 hours a day). When i finished, i felt like i still wasn't quite ready to speak, and started studying a 5000-word frequency list. I think i pulled around 3500 words from it. While i was still working through the frequency list, i got tossed in a couple situations where i HAD to speak Spanish and, while i didn't exactly feel comfortable, i found i could get by and had pretty good comprehension of what people said to me. After finishing the frequency list, i ended up going to Spain right around the 1 year mark. I was really worried that i wouldn't be able to speak at all, but after ten minutes my tongue started to untwist itself and within a week i could talk with ease about pretty much anything that i had the vocab for.
You say you spend two hours a day studying, but it really depends how you spend that, how concentrated you are, etc. A lot of courses will just reinforce your passive skills and you'll need to go out of your way to activate them. Another forum member who also did Platiquemos, irrationale, had a pretty similar experience to mine, though they started speaking much earlier on and had built up a nice conversational ability by the time they finished the course. Once you get a nice grasp on the verb tenses and the subjunctive, you really should start speaking. It might be scary at first (i never felt like i was ready to speak Spanish and only started speaking it by force), but once you relax a little bit you'll realize just how well you can get by. Even now i don't feel perfectly comfortable speaking Spanish, and i spoke exclusively in Spanish every day for nearly two years! I'd say a year of solid study is more than enough to get you conversational, you might need a bit more work before you feel comfortable reading Spanish literature, but it's worth the effort. You can't really put a time period on it, but you will get there and probably sooner than you think :) Sorry for hijacking your log, James29! 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5367 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 362 of 668 02 February 2014 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the question, Amy and thanks for the answer Crush. Crush has given some great advice over the years to learners of Spanish and I concur with the advice given.
I will also add an answer from my personal perspective. I have studied about 30-60 minutes a day quite consistently now for four years and four months. I rarely miss a day. I say "study", but often times it is doing things like reading in Spanish or watching TV in Spanish. At first I religiously worked through programs like Pimsleur, Michel Thomas, Assimil and FSI. I certainly have a different perspective looking back than I did "in the moment" about my Spanish abilities. I think there is a natural tendency to think (at least for me) that my Spanish level is better than it really is. I started doing skype talks and meetups at about 1.5 years into my studying. In retrospect, my Spanish was pretty bad at that point. I could communicate and understand some things, but my level was pretty low. I certainly did not feel "confident." At that point I had done a bunch of entry level courses like the ones mentioned above. I had done Assimil twice and had also done Living Language Beyond the Basics. I then started FSI. FSI really started giving me the confidence I needed and helped a lot. I went to the Dominican Republic for a week about 2 years into my studies. At that point I had finished about half of FSI. I could communicate ok at that point. I vividly remember thinking to myslef "I am pretty good at Spanish" when I went there. I took lessons at a school and spoke entirely Spanish for more than half the day. I could certainly function and communicate, but it was tough. I remember in the mid-afternoons thinking I had to stop speaking Spanish because it was just exhausting me too much. I also remember having some distinct difficulties when I was there. I went into a store and bought a coke. I could not understand that the cashier was asking me if I wanted to have it in a bottle or in a cup to go. The concept just did not click with me and she certainly was not cooperative in lowering her level of Spanish to help (because she likely never spoke to non-native speakers). I was just clueless until someone there could help me understand the issue. (I guess when you buy a bottle of coke down there they don't let you keep the bottle. I did not know that). Also, when I was in the Dominican I went into another store and tried to buy a chocolate donut for breakfast. The woman was saying something to me I did not understand and would not give me the donut. I just kept pointing at the donut and telling her I wanted the chocolate donut. She would not give it to me and kept saying something I could not understand. I was clueless. Eventually someone in the store helped me and told me that it was not a chocolate donut and that it was really dulce de leche and she wanted to know if I still wanted it or if I would prefer something else. In my third year my Spanish continued to improve quite a bit. I went to Ecuador after three years. I spent more than two weeks there speaking only in Spanish. I only spoke 20 minutes of English the entire time. I did not have any problems that I remember. I had to ask some people to speak slower or repeat themselves, but most people cooperated with me quite a bit. I did not have any problems like the coke or donut incident. I was also much more outgoing and went into tons of stores, gyms, comedy shows, tours, etc. (edit: while I did not have any problems getting to and into the comedy show, I must add that I understood absolutely NOTHING in the comedy show). I would say I was pretty confident with my Spanish at that time. I do remember buying a plane ticket from Quito to Cuenca when I was down there and I decided to do it in English just to make sure I did not screw something up. I also remember that I really did not feel totally comfortable saying "I speak Spanish" to family and friends. Sometime between my trip to Ecuador and my trip to Spain (which I did just shy of 4 years into my Spanish journey) I got comfortable saying "I speak Spanish" to people I work with and to Latinos who I would encounter at work. I also put that on my website for my business and feel it is quite honest considering I have helped a number of Latinos who do not speak any English. When I went to Spain about six months ago I had almost no problems whatsoever and felt like I could live there pretty easily. I did have problems with things like buying subway tickets from the subway machines, but I think that was more my technological incompetence than my Spanish. I got lost tons of times and asked numerous strangers for directions. I was not shy at all about my Spanish. I also went to a bullfight and sat next to an elderly couple who spoke with me the entire time and I was able to learn the intricacies of bullfighting... something I knew nothing about. I was able to travel quite easily and rented a car, bought train tickets, plane tickets, bus tickets, etc. I do remember giving a bus driver the address of a place I was going and asking him to tell me when we got there and not understanding his response. I asked him about three times to repeat himself as I could not understand and I simply never understood what he was telling me so I gave up. It is possible he was speaking Valenciano to me. He understood what I was asking him because he stopped at the address. I will add a BIG caveat. I still do not feel totally confident with my Spanish. As the journey goes on I realize that I still have TONS of room to improve. I feel confident with one on one conversations and can do quite well with them. Even though this is true, I still have problems sometimes. Just this week I had to speak to a Colombian woman about coordinating some business things. I had a very hard time understanding her. She was mumbling and slurring her words and I think she must have been using a lot of slang or something. In the course of a 20 minute conversation I had to ask her about 5 or 6 times to speak more clearly and slower. I got quite frustrated and actually I got quite annoyed at her because she was not cooperating with me at all. I wonder if she was simply not very well educated or something. Anyway, it was a frustrating talk because I find the Colombian accent one of the easiest to understand and I had a very hard time in that conversation. I have a number of skype language exchanges and I sometimes note that my Spanish is the more dominant language (when compared to my partner's English) and it give me confidence because my partner's English is pretty good and I realize that my Spanish is better than that. My grammar is not perfect by any means. I would benefit immensely by going through FSI again sometime. I am told my accent is pretty good, but I have to work on my pronunciation of my Rs and RRs. I have a hard time understanding TV and conversations between natives. I don't feel comfortable writing other than informal text chatting. I need to beef up my vocabulary a lot. In short, I could certainly say that I still do not feel "confident" speaking Spanish in many respects. Edited by James29 on 02 February 2014 at 12:48pm 10 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5367 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 363 of 668 02 February 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Goals for 2014:
Read any 15 books in Spanish. -> 3 done (Anthem, Joven Abogado #1 and Narnia #1) Watch any 100 30 minute TV episodes in Spanish -> more than 28 done Re-read Cassell's Colloquial Spanish -> finished the "B" section. Re-read Practice Makes Perfect "Subjunctive Up Close." -> No progress yet. Discussion: See my previous post for a lengthy discussion and summary of my Spanish progress. This week felt good. I read the entire first book in the Narnia series... El Sobrino del Mago. The audio book was great. I liked the narrator's voice a lot. He spoke very fast, however, and that seemed to cause me some problems. I was quite discouraged at my inability to understand everything. I was expecting to understand the book quite easily and I did not. I certainly understood the book and what was happening, but I definitely missed a lot of the details. I think a slower audio would have made a big difference, but I need to challenge myself so this is good. I also note that I think this log helps me. I really wanted to finish the book before updating my log. I note that every now and then it gives me a tad bit more motivation. I probably did an extra half hour yesterday and today just so I could finish the book this morning. I think I will start another Narnia book tomorrow, but I'll see how I feel. I checked out the book on inter-library loan so I'd like to do as many of them as possible while I have it. I only did a tad bit of Man, Economy and State this week because I was primarily focused on Narnia. I keep watching the Simpsons. It has become a nice habit and I am usually able to watch an episode every night. Sometimes I miss an episode, but I think I am doing about 5 per week on average. This will be helpful in the long term. I had a few good skype talks. Nothing new here. I went to a couple meetups. I am almost at the point where I won't count this as Spanish time because it is really not challenging now and the conversations are pretty basic. I have been a total slacker in the gym lately and don't think I exercised at all this week! I, therefore, did not get a chance to work on the Cassell's book. I must say that this week (and last week) I have felt a bit discouraged at my Spanish level. The Narnia book was MUCH more difficult to LR than I thought it would be. I also had a telephone call (mentioned above) with a Colombian woman that was very difficult. I had really hoped to read through about 15 children's books like Narnia and Harry Potter and then move on to books I actually enjoy. I am feeling like I will never get to read books for adults. Economics books seem different as they are much easier to read. There are so many cognates and I am so familiar with the content that it is easier. I also am missing things in The Simpsons. I did an online assessment test and failed the B2 level. I was pretty close and I passed the B1 level pretty well, but I was quite bummed out. It was online so it did not test speaking or comprehension. It was mostly grammar and vocabulary. Oh well. I guess I need to just chug on and keep challenging myself. I'll re-assess myself after finishing my goals for 2014. I don't want to quit. I really want to press on and advance my Spanish to a point where I can use it professionally and socially in an effortless manner. I don't need to be perfect, but I'd like to be able to pick up an adult novel and be able to read it fairly easily. I'd also like to be able to help Latino customers without having ANY communication problems. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5857 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 364 of 668 02 February 2014 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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About making the switch to Spanish literature (as opposed to translations or young adult novels), when i first started i would take every single word i didn't know and make word lists out of them. I felt really bad about skipping a word i didn't know even if i knew i would never use it and didn't know what the English translation meant (lots of words about architectural style, painting style, plants/flowers, etc.). In a 300 page book i would find nearly a 1,000 words. I did this for a few books and it was just brutal. Later when reading a book in English i realized that i recognized most of the words but didn't necessarily know what they all meant. I decided to read another book in Spanish, this time leaving unknown words alone. I realized that i recognized most words and that, compared to the English books i read, there were even fewer words i didn't know. It just bothered me more because it was in Spanish and i felt that i needed to know every word to get by.
Since then i generally just read for pleasure, though occasionally i'll mine a book for new words. The last book i did that for was around 250 pages and i think i pulled about 200 new words from it. Less than 1 word a page! It just feels different because it's in Spanish and i feel like i'm still learning it, whereas i don't feel like i'm still learning English (it actually feels more like i'm forgetting it :P). I don't think i ever come across structures that i don't know or can't figure out anymore. What i would do is just keep a notebook next to your bed or wherever you read and as you go through and either a) see a word used multiple times or b) just think a word is really interesting, write it down in the notebook, perhaps with the page and paragraph number, to look up later. That way you can still make good progress in the book and can get into the mode. I think even now if you just start reading you'll find most of the words you don't know aren't essential to understanding the basic story. If the lamp on the table is an ancient Egyptian lamp or from some obscure village in the Himalayans, it probably won't affect your comprehension of the story that much. You probably have a much better English vocabulary than i do, but you might still find that you skip over quite a few words when reading in English, too. Btw, i really enjoyed reading about your experience with Spanish, thanks for sharing it :) It took me a long time before i said that i spoke Spanish, too. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5367 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 365 of 668 02 February 2014 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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One thing I hate to do is look up words in a dictionary. I just do not like to do it. I did it with one book this year and it was actually pretty helpful. I am sure I'd progress faster if I did it, but I just don't like doing it. Even with that one book I simply stopped looking up unknown words. I'd rather read lower level books so I learn more words from context than have to use a dictionary.
I am trying to read books while listening to the audio so it is hard/impossible to stop and write down a word or two. I like using audio while I read because I feel that hearing the words and seeing them at the same time really helps. Plus, I can move through books faster with audio. Although, I read (without audio) much faster than I thought I would. Great analysis about not knowing words in English. That's probably very true. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| AmyinBrooklyn Senior Member United States Joined 4043 days ago 87 posts - 122 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 366 of 668 03 February 2014 at 6:14am | IP Logged | ||
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Crush and James29 -
Thank you both for your thoughts. Hearing of your experiences is just so helpful. For myself, now that I've really started utilizing italki, I'm hoping that it helps. And it's nice to have a sort of benchmark - even though, I know that I'm not gifted at languages, I'm just forcing this Spanish thing to happen and it does feel like brute force. James29-Thank you for detailing your experience. It really helps. And I should say, that while I know that you have a discouraging week, your perseverance is such an inspiration. I have read nearly your entire log and the way you approached learning the language and sticking with it is just inspirational. emk reposted something of his that now I can't find now but that linked to the Dunning-Kruger effect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect - I'm just a beginner so for me, it was a good reminder not to overestimate my abilities but for you, it might be a good reminder of how much you know. Anyway, I think you're doing awesomely. I just hope that I can get to the same place! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5367 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 367 of 668 09 February 2014 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, it was another somewhat discouraging week. I am a bit more than half way through the third Narnia book (I skipped The Lion, Witch and Wardrobe becasue I have read it so many times). El Caballo y El Muchacho is even more difficult for me than the first one. The quality of the audio book is great and the narrator is wonderful. My problem is that I just cannot follow the story. I understood the first few chapters but then when things started to change (when they met the other kid and horse on their way to Narnia) I simply got lost. I can understand the sentences and if I stop the audio and read I can understand it, but with the audio I just cannot piece things together. This is discouraging because I really thought I would whiz through these books without any problems. I will keep trudging through this book even though I really don't know what is going on now. I am glad it is a fairly short book.
I was so discouraged earlier in the week that I took a day off and watched an Argentinian movie called Carancho. It was the country's nomination for the foreign movie of the year. Here, again, I was very discouraged. I followed the very basic plot, but was pretty much clueless with the details. I have been watching the Simpsons fairly consistently and that is going great. No metups this week. I don't really mind if I miss those anymore. A few skype talks. I have a couple good partners. One of them does the same job as me in Mexico and that is kind of cool. Unfortunately, we don't get to talk too often as we are both busy and our schedules do not work well together. Things for the business are going surprisingly well. I am way ahead of my goals and projections. There are some MAJOR headaches I still need to resolve realted to the previous owner, but, hopefully, those things will work themselves out. With the success over the past few months I took some time this past week to think about if I could do more things to reach out to Spanish speakers. That is something I eventually hope to do and this week I asked myself "why not now?" considering things are going well. I looked at some other businesses like mine that reach out to Latinos. I read their websites and could easily understand them, but was really discouraged that I am basically incompetent when it comes to writing Spanish. I'd never be able to write out pages for a website. I'd look like a fool. I determined that I really need to progress more before doing something like this. Hopefully I will get back on track when I finish this Narnia book. I'll go back to Man Economy and State and see if I can finish off the first half before doing anything else. Then, I think I will read more of those Theodore Boone books by John Grisham. The first one was quite easy and made me feel good about my Spanish. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4136 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 368 of 668 09 February 2014 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | ||
I know it's easier said than done - but try not to get discouraged! I don't know that there's much to be gained from reading a book that you don't understand. If I were you, rather than getting through the book using sheer brute force, I'd consider putting it away for a few days so that you can read the English version. Then, with some context to help situate you, you'll probably enjoy the book in Spanish a lot more. Good luck! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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