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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6000 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 73 of 140 23 January 2009 at 2:05am | IP Logged | ||
If you remain unconvinced, I'm not sure there is much more I can say that would convince you. I see some relevance to your attempt to frame this in terms of simple 'etiquette', as you have prompted me to think of one category of cases in which this may indeed be the case. Often when a stranger alights from the elevator, a person who has no idea where in the world I am from but only that my skin is not yellow, he will push his way through 15 Chinese without a word and then say "sorry" to me. I usually emotionally react to this as a racist attack, I can't even ride the elevator without my being 'different' from everyone else having to be pointed out to me. Last time I hollered after the fellow and said "Oh, it must have been a CHINESE. I can tell because he said 'ek skoozuh me-ah'." In retrospect I realize there is nothing I can possibly do to share with him the humiliation of being called "out of place" every time I do something as simple as ride an elevator. He will not feel the least bit perturbed on being told he is CHINESE. If anyone has the genius to come up with a one sentence phrase that could explain the whole of my humiliation to such persons, making it actually practical for me to do so, please tell me. I don't think it can be done in less than a paragraph or in a way that can be communicated successfully to random strangers. Anyway, to get to the crux of what I have realized due to Goindol's accusation that I myself am a bandit, is that I have developed such an overwhelming sensitiveness to being a language whore, that I myself am terrified of ever doing anything which could possibly be construed as such, and consequently will generally ignore or do my best to avoid ever having an interaction or conversation with any Chinese person I know to have studied or taken any interest in the English language, even if they show no interest in speaking it with me. This has led me into a hellish nightmare which inevitably will require me to soon resign from my current post. A good forth of my coworkers enjoy banditing me for English on a regular basis. I know how much I deplore responses in broken English to my Chinese, so I never respond to their English in Chinese. As I don't have much desire to use English either, I often end up mumbling or communicate back through gestures. For the rest of my coworkers, even when it is urgently necessary, I find any possible means to avoid ever speaking with them. Every time I want to ask an important work-related question to any coworker bandit or not, I have several things flash through my mind: (1) The time I paid thousands $$ for a university Chinese course where the teacher was not allowed to use any English. She abused the hell out of it and made it into her English lesson. (2) The time studying in Japan when I had a teacher more interested in learning English than teaching me Japanese. Several more thousand $$. (3) If I am "nice" and ask them in English, I'm negating my purpose in being here and living at all. (4) I can't force myself to use Chinese on them because I have the emotional feeling that using Chinese is an expression of intensive hatred for them. I know how badly I hate being address in English and how it feels like being hated and how point #1 and #2 felt, so naturally my brain reverses this relationship and has come to consider the use of Chinese as a means of demonstrating an intensive hatred toward Chinese people. This is perhaps one reason I can't use the language at all, instead of with some "willing" 5% subset or whatever that aren't bandits. So yeah... psychotic as it may be, this is the mental damage that the whole thing has resulted in! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jstele Bilingual Senior Member United States Joined 6657 days ago 186 posts - 194 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Korean* | Message 74 of 140 23 January 2009 at 4:09am | IP Logged | ||
Well, he didn't say anything to the Chinese because it may not be necessary in the culture to apologize for pushing other people. Who knows? He apologized to you because that is the polite thing to do in English-speaking countries. Maybe other Western countries as well. I can understand you feeling different from other people, but I don't think you can call this a racist attack. He expected you not to be able to speak Chinese because you were a Westerner. That was ignorant, but it was not to single you out as the lone Westerner. I think the way you responded was definitely racist. You could have responded in Chinese with "I can speak Chinese" or something like that. You said that a fourth of your coworkers force English on you. Well, that leaves 3/4 to speak Chinese with. Have you tried explaining to them or anyone else that forces Chinese on you that you would like them to speak Chinese to you? They're trying to learn another language like you. They see you as their chance to practice English. You don't have to oblige them, but you need to give them a chance to know where you are coming from. And who says that you have to respond in English? Respond back in Chinese if you want. They have the right to speak whatever language they want as do you. You can tell them that you will ignore whatever they say in English. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| melitu Groupie United States Joined 6162 days ago 42 posts - 38 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 75 of 140 23 January 2009 at 6:23am | IP Logged | ||
The elevator incident is definitely not a a racist attack and I'm sorry you thought it so. In China (as I've heard), people pushing without a word of 'excuse me' or 'sorry' is standard. In this case, the guy saw you were Western, realized that in Western cultures it's impolite to not say 'excuse me', and so, took the courtesy to say 'excuse me' to you in English. He probably chose English because he wasn't sure if you spoke Chinese or not, but there was a pretty good chance you understood English. Yes, based on your skin color, but also because English is understood by many in the world these days and 'excuse me' is such a basic phrase. He was simply being polite. If you wanted to respond, you could have said something back in Chinese, like 'o, mei guan xi'. It's sad that you've gotten to be so bitter. If being in China means you're more unhappy than you are happy, you should probably leave the country. Over time, if this continues in the direction it's going now, you'll just end up more and more bitter. There are plenty of ways to be immersed in the language without being in the country itself. Or, take on a new attitude of not assuming too much. From your recent posts, it seems that a lot of the bitterness might stem from assumptions. You need to be upfront with people, letting them know that you're there to learn Chinese, so you don't want to speak English. Otherwise, yes, they might think you're just shy. Making assumptions across different cultures is dangerous; the likeliness of assuming the wrong thing is high. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Goindol Senior Member United States Joined 6076 days ago 165 posts - 203 votes | Message 76 of 140 23 January 2009 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with the above posters. parasitius, while I'm sympathetic to your mental distress, I do not think that you're a victim in this. As neither an economic nor a political refugee, you're choosing to be in China.
The distinction between treating this as a matter of morality vs. one of etiquette is an important one. I think that you live in a world of "oughts" and "shoulds", and that your doing so makes it difficult for you to accept situations that do not conform to your expectations. Do you really think that 95% of the Chinese people you come across are immoral bandits? Or do you think it's more likely a matter of different customs and cultural norms? Short of removing yourself from China, you can continue to rail against the inconsiderate Chinese, or come up with creative solutions to preserve your sanity. It is your choice. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6751 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 77 of 140 26 January 2009 at 4:29am | IP Logged | ||
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Parasitius,
If you are at work maybe communication is important most of the time. Therefore I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to do in the workplace. But if it was a situation where it would be more acceptable, I think that just completely ignoring anyone unless they address you in only Chinese may be quite a good stategy. I have never done this when banditted. Instead I just continued speaking the local language just hoping that they would run out of steam. Often they did. However, I have seen this total ignore strategy done and it worked fine (as well as being hilarious to watch!). In another thread I mentioned Kohei didn't I? A Japanese exchange student learning English. When some final year Japanese majors attempted to bandit him, he simply would look at them and say nothing until they addressed him in nothing but English. Like I have said, I have never done this. But if I am banditted badly the next time I am abroad for language purposes, I may try it. I wasn't banditted that much in Japan last summer. But this time I will be in a larger city. So I don't know how the situation will be. If it is a bandit infested hellhole, I think I may try such strategy. Parasitius, I know that some other members cannot understand your frustration with the situation, maybe because they don't understand the frustration of being a native anglophone and having people constantly yell English at you, but if I were in your shoes, I would probably be just as bitter. Like you, when in a foreign country for the purpose of language studies, I hate having people just unexpectedly force English on me. It is one of the things that annoys me most. Personally I don't see why I should have to take all this crap when trying to study abroad just because, by chance, I was born into an anglophone country and raised to speak a language which is used as a lingua franca in this day and age. Because I don't see why I have to take all of this crap, while non-anglophone foreign students don't, I never give in to those bandits. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5879 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 78 of 140 26 January 2009 at 6:38am | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry, the site is slow and clunky tonight. See my post below. Edited by SlickAs on 26 January 2009 at 6:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5879 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 79 of 140 26 January 2009 at 6:44am | IP Logged | ||
I agree with you. And I believe that the "English bandit" posters are probably 'involuntary celibates'. 'Involuntary' in that they would like to have the local women in their lives but are unable, and 'celibates' in that they are not having any sex, unlike a priest who is having no sex because he chose it. They take their involuntary celibacy, and find reasons to pin it on. They are bitter now, you understand? And these Chinese (Japanese, Koreans) speak to them in English. "Bitches, whores! They tease me! They speak to me and pretend they are interested in me ... and I see a flash of their underwear, but then excuse themselves and go back to their Japanese (Chinese, Korean) men ... It is all about my English! They are speaking to me to practice their English! Whores, bitches, etc." See what you guys (language bandit people ... guys ... I dont see any females) need to do now is show us that you have women in your life. Because I find it hard to believe that you would be sleeping with a Japanese (Chinese, Korean) woman, and while she is sleeping in your bed, be posting paragraphs upon paragraphs of conspiracies and hate and bile. Your are involuntary celibates, right? Like if you have a (even a single) girl to date tomorrow night you would hardly be complaining, right? You guys are miles from that. Involuntary Celibates, pure and simple. And they come here, on this forum, on learning languages, with their sexual frustration, and expect us to be brothers and sisters in their pain ... Well guess what? We don’t believe in your conspiracies. We speak many languages, and are not trying to find our way in a single foreign culture. Find another forum that is about sexual frustration ... they will understand. See ya! We are travelers who have been to China and Japan and Korea, and we have seen it. We speak many languages. We do not see this "language banditry" to be an impediment. Edited by SlickAs on 26 January 2009 at 7:30am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Hollow Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States luelinks.netRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6541 days ago 179 posts - 186 votes Speaks: French*, English*, SpanishB2 Studies: Korean | Message 80 of 140 26 January 2009 at 7:26am | IP Logged | ||
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I think the last post while attempting to rephrase in a more wordy way melitu's post, has succeeded in reducing the problem to something it is not. I don't see what anybody's gender has to do with this, and while perhaps getting laid solves problems (as your post seems to say), it doesn't eliminate the frustration of someone speaking to you in (for example) English, while you yourself wish to practice [language of country you are in].
1 person has voted this message useful |
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