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Fasulye
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| Message 113 of 140 22 April 2009 at 2:11am | IP Logged |
Maximus wrote:
In Europe, it doesn't seem that problematic. People are accustomed to multilingualism and English isn't anything mysterious or particularly exciting. The only western European language I know is Spanish and I have never had any problems there.
However, it is East Asia where this phenomena is abundant. Because we Europeans look physically different from Asians, many associate that "white skin equals English speaker". They don't seem to understand any concept of diversity between the peoples of Europe.
There are also cases why some Asians always assume that non-Asians can't possibly know Asian languages because unlike Europe many are not so used to multilingualism. Just like I have mentioned before. Many assumptions are just born out of ignorance and a complete lack of logic.
Also I must not forget to include fetishization of English! Many think of it as if it was the next fad or something and want to show off with it. In Europe it is just like "you speak English? So what? Many people do!". You couldn't possibly make yourself so different to everyone else by learning English in a lot of places in Europe.
If you have only studied European languages before, chances are you won't have had a chance to experience it. |
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Ah, now I understand! So it's a phenonemon outside of Europe, perhaps something of developing countries. I haven't been to others continents as an adult, so therefore I cannot estimate anything. I can imagine that in many countries Europeans look as foreigners and therefore can be identified as tourists easily.
Fasulye-Babylonia
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| Maximus
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6747 days ago
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Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai
| Message 114 of 140 22 April 2009 at 2:15am | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
Maximus wrote:
In Europe, it doesn't seem that problematic. People are accustomed to multilingualism and English isn't anything mysterious or particularly exciting. The only western European language I know is Spanish and I have never had any problems there.
However, it is East Asia where this phenomena is abundant. Because we Europeans look physically different from Asians, many associate that "white skin equals English speaker". They don't seem to understand any concept of diversity between the peoples of Europe.
There are also cases why some Asians always assume that non-Asians can't possibly know Asian languages because unlike Europe many are not so used to multilingualism. Just like I have mentioned before. Many assumptions are just born out of ignorance and a complete lack of logic.
Also I must not forget to include fetishization of English! Many think of it as if it was the next fad or something and want to show off with it. In Europe it is just like "you speak English? So what? Many people do!". You couldn't possibly make yourself so different to everyone else by learning English in a lot of places in Europe.
If you have only studied European languages before, chances are you won't have had a chance to experience it. |
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Ah, now I understand! So it's a phenonemon outside of Europe, perhaps something of developing countries. I haven't been to others continents as an adult, so therefore I cannot estimate anything. I can imagine that in many countries Europeans look as foreigners and therefore can be identified as tourists easily.
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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Not necessarily limited to developing countries. Japan and Korea are not exactly what I'd call developing countries! Especially Japan! Apparantly China is a bad place for them!
I don't think it is developing countries in particular, just considerably distant and different countries to our own.
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Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5845 days ago
5460 posts - 6006 votes
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| Message 115 of 140 22 April 2009 at 2:22am | IP Logged |
Maximus wrote:
Not necessarily limited to developing countries. Japan and Korea are not exactly what I'd call developing countries! Especially Japan! Apparantly China is a bad place for them!
I don't think it is developing countries in particular, just considerably distant and different countries to our own. |
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So many Asians wouldn't expect Europeans to speak Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.
Fasulye-Babylonia
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| Maximus
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6747 days ago
417 posts - 427 votes
Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai
| Message 116 of 140 22 April 2009 at 2:38am | IP Logged |
Fasulye wrote:
Maximus wrote:
Not necessarily limited to developing countries. Japan and Korea are not exactly what I'd call developing countries! Especially Japan! Apparantly China is a bad place for them!
I don't think it is developing countries in particular, just considerably distant and different countries to our own. |
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So many Asians wouldn't expect Europeans to speak Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.
Fasulye-Babylonia |
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This may be true. Many don't expect Europeans to be learning there languages. But now with the expanding economies of East Asian nations, they can understand a little more why their languages are becoming popular.
However, I have found that quite a lot of old people in the Japanese countryside DO expect foreign residents to speak Japanese. Their mentality is "if you live here, you have to speak Japanese". In the countryside, I have never had problems getting people to speak with me because they doubt whether or not a European can actually possibly learn Japanese. I have even had people just come up to me in the streat and speak with me as if I was a fellow native! When in the small countryside towns, sometimes I even forget that I am a foreigner!
In the cities though, people have a different mentality in my opinion. People don't really expect foreigners to know Japanese. However, once it is established that you do speak Japanese, most people will happily speak with you, even though they may admit that the experience is surprising.
Edited by Maximus on 22 April 2009 at 2:39am
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| roy2005
Diglot
Groupie
Hong Kong
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| Message 117 of 140 22 April 2009 at 3:49am | IP Logged |
Regarding the ignorance about "western people", I have to say that there are tons of Chinese people who believe Chinese and English are the only languages in the world (and they may vaguely recall there exists Japanese upon prompting). That's where the idea "foreigners = native English speakers" comes from. This implies that "native" English speakers include all Europeans, Africans, all Asians outside of China, and North and South Americans. However I guess this happens only among the less educated, though not necessarily just in rural China.
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| parasitius
Diglot
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United States
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| Message 118 of 140 30 August 2009 at 3:17am | IP Logged |
roy2005 wrote:
Regarding the ignorance about "western people", I have to say that
there are tons of Chinese people who believe Chinese and English are the only languages
in the world (and they may vaguely recall there exists Japanese upon prompting). That's
where the idea "foreigners = native English speakers" comes from. This implies that
"native" English speakers include all Europeans, Africans, all Asians outside of China,
and North and South Americans. However I guess this happens only among the less
educated, though not necessarily just in rural China. |
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I wouldn't say there is any connection to whether or not they are supposed to be
educated. I'd be glad to introduce you all to an engineer at Microsoft who was shocked
when I revealed to him that all of the "not-famous" (as in other than the "famous"
countries Germany and France famous for having their own languages French and German
respectively) countries of Europe do not, in fact, use English 99% of the time at work
and at home and speak it natively. I promise you the guy was not an exception and he
could introduce me to several more "educated" people who had the same belief that
English is, with two or three exceptions, the native language of most of Europe.
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| LatinoBoy84
Bilingual Triglot
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United States
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| Message 119 of 140 02 September 2009 at 5:13am | IP Logged |
SlickAs wrote:
I understand this well, and it is the curse of the English speaker ... bi-lingualism kills your language learning opportunities.
The reality as I see it, is that when communicating, the honest language to communicate in (if it were a negotiation) is the strongest pair. So for example, in Montreal it is common to meet hispanophones who are fluent in Spanish and French, but speak no English. My Spanish is stronger than my French, so the best language combination is Spanish. Similarly, if I am speaking to a Swede, and his / her English is stronger than my Swedish, then it is almost an insult to insist upon Swedish.
It is only language banditry if they are forcing you to speak with them in bad English even though that is not the natural strongest language pair (i.e. your command of their native language is stronger than theirs of English). For example,you would not speak to another native English speaker in Japan in Japanese, right? Then by extension if you walk up to a Japanese who studied their MBA in the United States for example and speaks fluent English and asked for directions in Japanese, and he replied "It's OK, I speak English ... head north on ..." it would be fine. He is not "using you" for practice since his English requires no practice. It is only language banditry when they are forcing you into baby-talk English when it is not even close to the strongest communication pair.
Given that, I have a coping strategy that I used to use in Argentina. If they want to force English on me (despite my fluent Spanish), I would reply to them in EXTREMELY fast spoken, colloquial Australian English, with over-use of Australian slang including rhyming slang and the such (it would sound stilted in Australia) that even an American would struggle to understand. When their eyes glaze over, you give them the "D'ya understand?" and when they say "no", you repeat the exact same thing in Spanish. This underlines the nature of the strongest pair.
Now that is not a very nice strategy because you are basicly telling them "Your English is such rubbish that you can't even understand it ... we will speak Spanish" even though you have not given them a fair chance. It feeds into their embarassment that comes at being unsure of yourself in a foreign tongue ... they came to you all proud of their English ability with their tails wagging, and you are smashing their confidence to pieces. But hey, if they want to be friends for more than just someone to practice their English with, we can come back and practice a little English once we have a friendship and the language of that friendship is established to default to Spanish. Then I can compliment him / her on their English and restore their confidence. But the supremicy of my Spanish has been established. |
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I'm still reading through this thread...but this is one of the funniest posts I have ever read. Thank you this made my afternoon I was trying very hard not burst out laughing during my 15 min. break at work today.
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| irrationale
Tetraglot
Senior Member
China
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| Message 120 of 140 02 September 2009 at 5:34am | IP Logged |
I went to foreign obsessed Shanghai, and I never experience "language banditry". Most people never even attempted to speak English to me, and spoke to me in Chinese, even if I hadn't spoken before.
Even the few who did attempt were quickly shut down when I spoke Chinese. That is not to say that I was trying to demolish their attempt, on the contrary, these few times actually gave me pleasure to try to help someone in a situation I could empathize with. It is just that the moment we switched to Chinese, and they saw that I was better than their English, they never went back.
There were two however who had English better than my Chinese, and therefore, we spoke English.
Like I said, this is only with a few young people, most never even attempted and spoke native speed Chinese to me. Especially older people.
In short, I experience no English banditry in the most likeliest of places. It seemed that a logical calculation of who had the best language skills was made, and stuck with that language. This is just my experience.
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