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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5879 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 9 of 140 16 January 2009 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I completely understand, and feel that a bi-lingual community makes it very difficult to learn the language.
For example, studying Spanish while travelling in Latin America is a breeze. Learning French in Montreal, Quebec is a challenge. There are 2 factors to this ... first is the widespread unilingualism of Latin America meaning you are forced to speak Spanish, and the second is that Spanish speakers are very good at understanding bad pronunciation. For example, I once heard a Texan in Mexico want to say he does not understand (no entiendo), and instead said with a broad Texan accent "No Nintendo" like the brand of video game, and all understood. Whereas in Quebec, all educated people are bi-lingual, feeble attempts to speak French by Anglophones are treated with scorn (for reasons of historical political tensions), and mincing pronunciation in French renders a speaker completely incomprehensible even from a patient listener. The temptation to fall back onto English in difficult communication situations seems overwhelming. Yet your most important learning happens in these difficult situations. My progress immersed in Spanish was therefore incredibly quick, but immersed in French was painfully slow. A linguist involved in native Ameircian languages named Greg Thompson has interesting thoughts on this here: http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/gt/whatme.htm I pull out some of that article, in case you dont feel like reading the whole thing (note that Blackfoot is an Native American Language spoken in Alberta, Canada).
So given the above, just some thoughts:
This is OK if you do not feel the need to form friendships and relationships ... with shop-keepers, public, etc. treating them like auto-response robots solely to be used by you for language learning ... but if you wanted to form ongoing relationships, those relationships WILL be in the strongest language pair. For instance, had I insisted upon French with many-a francophone friend of mine when my French was really not even close to their English, I can asure you they would have tired of me pretty quickly in a way of "I want to get to know this guy, but the idiot refuses to speak English with me and forces his crappy French on me as if he is fluent ... go speak to someone else", and I would not have built those friendships. Without those friendships, I would not have been taken inside the francophone world. And without being taken inside the francophone world I would never have had the same opportunities to speak. Therefore, your policy, whilest perhaps a sound one for the one-eyed goal of language learning, is an exceptionally bad one for life-living in a foreign environment.
While I agree with your post in its common-sense form, I don't agree with this sentence. For a couple of years I had a best friend in Montreal who was a Swede, and despite speaking some sort of intermediate French when he arrived in Quebec he was singularly unable to improve his French despite living in a French speaking environment because of the same English problems that I had, and are discussed by the linguist above. It is really tempting to go around pretending you are a Greek or Belarusian that doesn't speak English, and that might be a fine strategy to use with shop-keepers, anonymous people, etc. But where your learning really takes off is once you are immersed with ongoing relationships with friends and lovers in your target language. Ultimately calling this complex issue "Language Banditry" is not to understand it properly, in my opinion. And if we don't understand it properly, you we can not form good strategies to overcome it. Edited by SlickAs on 17 January 2009 at 8:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6751 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 10 of 140 17 January 2009 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well it seems obvious that you have never stood in the shoes of a white European who is studying an Asian language in a Asian country doesn't it? Before you start declaring that they are not "Bandits", try studying an Asian language and living in an Asian country first. In the case of Japan, the situation facing me, try living in Japan first as a foreigner and don't make assumption about my side without having experienced life living in Japan. In those kind of countries, integrating as a foreigner can have some difficulties. It is not so simple like living life in another European country like Spain or the UK for example. It isn't too hard to integrate in those multicultural nations, especially for another European from a neighoring and similar culture. If you talk to some foreigners who have immigrated to Japan, many tell you that it can be a very lonely and frustrating time. The fact is that the Japanese just still have this kind of mentality. Now, I am not saying that it is mega-difficult to make friends in Japan, it just feels more difficult than say Europe. Whenever Japanese people seek friendship with foreigners, often there is the feeling that they have some kind of ulterior motive. Like they want something from it. Therefore, from what I have experienced myself, I often feel like I was a victim on several ocassions of what others have termed "language banditory". It is just natural that I keep alert for this and defend my own interests. If you had lived there yourself, you too would probably get the feeling that many are out to use you. Once one person even admitted it. He approached me demanding free English lessons and conversation practice, and when I refused, he directly said that "in that case I see no purpose for our friendship". Those kind of people abound and my advice is to just avoid them. Regarding your comments on how you believe that people only change language when one is struggling or has a strong accent or is making errors, again try living in Asia, find out for yourself without making assumptions. In Asia, where Europeans look so different physically, people will just come up to you speaking AT you (not TO/WITH you) in English. Just for being white. Again if you had read the comments of the people included in the link which I gave in my first post, you would have realised that many of the people who wrote about their discontent about the issue were in fact long time residents who spoke to high levels, yet were their command of the language was doubted. This doubt was brought on by racially influenced stereotypes in those regions. Being differentiated because of your skin colour or treated differently (dispite having more than enough knowledge of the local language for life there) again makes intergrating a more difficult challenge. In some western countries, we are brought up in a way, or more like indoctrinated into a way in which we all have to be so PC that we let others run all over our cultural heritage and show complete tolerance for everyone else. For example in Britain nowdays, we cannot often embrace our own Christian heritage and related things like Christmas ceremonies for fear that we may offend the recently arrived Muslim communities. Hell, it gets more stupid. Kids now sing "baa baa rainbow sheep" in place of "baa baa black sheep" because nowdays the world "black" is for some reason offensive. Now, you get none of that in Asia. People, based on racially predudice stereotypes, often assume us to be "stupid gaijin white people who are incapable or ever mastering our language". These kind of assumptions make the issue more serious than what others believe it to be. Again it can make intergration harder for the foreigner. Try living in Japan and see for your self. I think you missed the anti- language bandit people's point on treating people respectfully instead of acting like a vampire and mauling them for practice. The people on that site to which I refered mentioned many anecdotes how people used tactics to try to exploit them for language practice, even underhanded tactics like for example "one of the two Chinese friends claimed not to understand the Chinese speaking westerner (thinking oh a lovely chance to force some English out of this guy!) and the other Chinese person says "What? He said it totally clear!). Dispite this, and dispite having not walked in their shoes, you have felt that you can deny the existence of such phenomena and say it is just something petty and unimportant. This is what many people who have never stepped foot in the shoes of people in our situations say. "oh, they only want to practice English!". Yet they cannot comprehend that we want to study abroad too and enjoy authentic cultural experiences too without being hassled unwantedly all the time. On top of this, some people, especially non-native English speakers, cannot seem to understand that we native anglophone speakers have it worse in that our language has been, to the detriment of serious language learners, made into a lingua franca. Again a concept which others cannot understand yet make assumptions. No why should some "language bullies" be able to coerce people? What right do they have? Speaking of language bullies, I knew a guy (a senior grade and quite a large guy) at a martial arts club who was studying Chinese. Then this Chinese student on a language exchange program studying English came to train. He was a beginner and considerably smaller than the other guy. Because he wouldn't give in to the largers guy's demands to let him practice Chinese (because the Chinese guy was sick of being hassled), the larger guy in training time used to throw his weight around badly beating the poor Chinese guy until the Chinese guy didn't want to come and train anymore. Later the bully, who knows I am into languages, laughingly admitted that not being able to practice Chinese with the guy was his motive. He expected me to agree with him. I thought his actions were terrible and I soon cut ties with this selfish vampire-like "language bully". Now do you think that this kind of behaviour just a petty and unimportant thing? Is this type of behaviour justifiable or acceptable? Rather than just language banditory there could also be the term "language bullying". Again don't discount the seriousness of some of the things that happen so that some indivuals can get language practice. Again thinking that we should just be a sport and let them practice is again based on an assumption that an anglophone speaker wants the language to spread as the dominant lingua franca. Maybe being a Swedish person you will not understand this but some Anglophones feel frustration because of the diffusion. What do we have? Our own culture has lossed its uniqueness. On top of this we have to abide by the ultra politically correct ideals of modern and liberal societies in which we have to witness further attrition of our own culture. I personally don't like to see my own language so widespread. Back to the point of letting them practice, my language is widespread to the extent that if I just gave in to everyone, I would have not time for myself and my own studies. So I operate like a computer with antivirus software in "paranoid mode". I just block everything, not giving an inch! Also, another assumption that one may make is that the "english bandit" have a motive which is practice. Didn't it ever occur to you that people derive satisfaction from a power relationship in which they can feel dominant and satisfactionally coercive by forcing others to speak a certain language? Many people do this because they want to feel superior. Often being like a big daddy figure who has a skill over someone else who is dependent on that favour is another souce of satisfaction for some people. That is why I especially will refuse to be submissive to them. I for one will not humour them knowing that they have taken me for a "stupid white monolingual anglophone" when the basis of their idea stems from a racial stereotype. What about your country? I have heared that people have an hard time getting Swedish people to talk to them in Swedish. Consequently they cannot practice. How are learners of the Swedish language suppose to achieve fluency in Swedish when so many Swedish people speak English so well and feel that they can just always speak English to anyone? This logic of one person speaks better so it is just practical to speak English doesn't favour well those who want to learn certain languages like Swedish does it? That is one reason why I would never consider studying a Germanic language or a language of a country in which it is difficult to be allowed to practice. At least I am understanding with foreigners who come to my country to learn English. Even when I speak Japanese better than some of the exhanges students speak English, I don't just insist on Japanese because it would be more practical. Why? Because they can at least handle themselves, and me being an understanding language enthusiast, when they get into difficulties, I am nevertheless patient and allow them to reattemp to express their opinion. Basically I don't have double standards to the extent that some others do. Basically, I hate infidelity in relationships, so I would never cheat or consider cheating. I hate language banditory, so I wouldn't be a language bandit with foreigners in my own country. Before saying something like language banditory is inexistent and just a petty and silly idea anyway, please experience what it is like to victimised by it. Please read and try to understand the feelings and experiences of some people who have written about their discontent owed to language banditory. People often criticise the name of the term, and I too would like to see a more appropriate name instead of this rather colloquial name of this phenomena in order to maintain its seriousness, but because this is the only term I know which others have been using before me, I used the term "language banditory" just for the sake of understanding. Edited by Maximus on 17 January 2009 at 3:42pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6751 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 11 of 140 17 January 2009 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
For me, and from my experience, I don't think the language for the best relationship WILL always be the strongest pair. The reasoning, being I am much more interesting and outgoing when using another language. Normally unsociable me automatically sees a point to socialisation when it has a learning element. Apparantly from what people have told me is that I am much more funny and entertaining in foreign languages. I guess that the teacher who took me on nights out round Nagoya had superior English to my Japanese. He has even experienced quite a lot of time in England, the rest of Europe and America. But he respected my all japanese all the time policy, saw that I was a good student, and we formed an excellent relationship. We had deep conversations, we talked alot about our countries' histories, our travel experiences, our political and phylosophical views, etc... He seemed to love my company and according to his own words, the reason I was the one who he took out to dinner and to bars, etc... was becuase I was the one he though had the most interesting conversation and personality, even in Japanese. He was managing himself in English on his travels before I was even born. Yet because I could manage myself to a suffient level in Japanese, we spoke Japanese all the time. Doesn't this demonstrate my point that as long as one can manage themself at a functional level, they deserve to be addressed in the local laguage? I believe Iverson too touched on this point a little. I found his post particularly motivating. The idea of keeping on fighting and not giving ground to being made submissive or coerced. Edited by Maximus on 17 January 2009 at 3:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5840 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 12 of 140 17 January 2009 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Yeah actually, I've been in the situation you describe quite a lot. I guess we just have a different take on it. I spent a LOT of time in Japan as a teenager and also in Singapore and Hongkong due to some complicated family circumstances.
I never seriously attempted to learn Chinese and it wasn't strictly necessary. But I DID learn some basic Japanese though which came in helpful with people who couldn't speak English (such as some members of my stepmother's family among others). But it was hard going and I can't hold down a serious converation! If somebody was prepared to speak English with me I was grateful. My English was far from perfect at the time, but usually better then theirs for understandable reasons. I consider language to be for the purposes of communication. I prefer to speak in whatever language the people involved in the communication are able to understand the best! As for the comment about speaking Swedish - if the learner can speak it to a degree that it is possible to hold down a conversation, then any Swedish person would of course prefer to speak their own mother tongue over English! But it takes a year or more for most people to get to that level. Loads of Finns and some Germans speak good Swedish and use it when they visit Sweden as tourists. Many Germans buy a holiday cottage in rural Sweden and learn Swedish to become part of the community. The local Swedish people really appreciate the effort since in rural areas foreign language skills are less good. Immigrants from Poland and the Baltic states learn Swedish, not to mention the large numbers of refugees from 3rd world that Sweden has accepted. Old people usually don't speak very good English and are unlikely to try 'language banditry' with you... Many young people want to get some 'bang for their buck' after endless mandatory classes in English. Lost tourists are their only opportunity...! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6751 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 13 of 140 17 January 2009 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, I am pleased to hear that you actually have spent time in Asia, in particul Japan before commenting, though not having studied the languages seriously or beyond the basics. Even though you have a different take on it, I hope that you can eventually understand the frustration it can bring to some when the aforementioned phenomena becomes an impediment for language learning as well as an unwanted hassle. Maybe for a person who only wishes to acquire the basics or doesn't even see it as necessary, it is not a big deal. But for someone who invests so much time into the language (including abundant Kanji, grammar, etc...) and who is set to asquire dominance of the language, being spoken to like a child or having other take you for a "dumb westerner" is quite annoying and insulting. I hope it is true what you say about the situation in Sweden, for the sake of Swedish learners. I had only heared horror stories in the past where those who went for a semmester or two came back with very little. Still I am still not going to consider learning Swedish or any other Germanic language because of the fact that English is so widespread. I used to have interest in German. But nowdays I don't because it would be so hard to avoid the kind of English demanding coercive behaviour, maybe even if I was at a level C1. For the reason of avoiding language banditory, I decided to make Spanish my first foreign language. I know and can also confirm by experience that Spain, (ectept for Barcelona) is an excellent place for learning and in 3 months I was only victimised on an handful of ocassions. All ocassion returned to Spanish too when I kept speaking the local language. If I may ask a question regarding the thoughts of Sedish who speak English, do many have the similar thought that they always want to speak English because they want something out of their years of mandatory classes? Still, if we are in Japan, even if you Swedish people feel that I must comply to your demands that I speak English with you just because most of you are quite good at it or have studies it long in school, think again! You will speak to me in Japanese or you will not speak to me at all! I am one who opposes the use of English as a global lingua franca and will not be coerced to speak it when I do not wish to do so. "I consider language to be for the purposes of communication." For me, language is not simply communication alone, not simple a tool. Language is culture, identity, a feeling of who we are, a part of us, a feeling of belonging, (for an immigrant) a feeling of intergration, our fun, etc... In other words, though having a purpose of communication, language can be what we make it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 14 of 140 17 January 2009 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thank you, very well said Maximus. I agree. On the one hand, I do feel a sense of pride that our culture has become so successful and influential that so many people are inspired to learn our language. On the other, I'm proud of my cultural heritage and I don't like seeing it taken for granted and exploited. People butcher the English language - but it's not okay anymore for me to say "Merry Christmas" casually on the street. Why is that?
Absolutely. I am a very introverted person myself. Language is something that gives me a reason to put myself out there and make friends. You know, I really don't mind helping people to practice their English, assuming they are respectful and willing to share something in return (like allowing me to practice their language with them for example). I enjoy seeking out native speakers of my target language too. Perhaps they are only interested in my English at first, but then again I think most relationships start off superficial anyway. I have to take people on a case by case basis and I try not to assume anything. I respect people who are interested in English, but I don't respect people who behave like a leech. Edited by Starfallen on 17 January 2009 at 4:26pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6751 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 15 of 140 17 January 2009 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thanks for taking interest in my post. Culture and heritage can really be factors can't they? It is just assame that our Anglophone cultures are suffering from attrition and being forced into some kind of world culture. In the case of my own country, I, who is not considered a racist person, feel the need to stand up to the modern age's politically correctness on drugs. The other day I heared some banter about ideas that the image of the Christian cross is somehow now offensive to Muslims and to athiests. What a load of...! I personally am sick of being taken for a "stupid monolingual anglophone" wihout the other people evn knowing anything about me. In fact I may have greater language knowledge than many of the self-proclaimed multilingual continental Europeans who just take me for an "English fool". Now though I am starting to overcome my linguistic insecuries and I am starting to grow mentally. It is an awesome feeling considering a couple of years ago I felt so depressed about not having up to scratch linguistic ability like other Europeans supposedly do. I hope you feel this sense too or personal growth through languages. It is really awesome overcoming that stigma of monolingualism. I believe, just like you, that it is good for us to have a sense of being and belonging, often through languages including our own, but I believe that extreme national pride can only get silly. It can get out of hand very quickly and cause many stupid things. Ultimately I would prefer to be viewed as an individual. I would like to have a name, an individual name, and not just "that gaijin" or that foreigner. Therefore, as an individual, I ultimately want to be judged as a named person with personal characteristics (including 日本語ができるルーク - "Luke who speaks Japanese") as opposed to being viewed as a presumed monolingual anglophone just because the language I was brough up to speak just happens to be a certain language, or even worse, my skin colour. Now do people see how those assumptions made by language bandits can have a negative, or even racially prejudice basis? In short, I want to be treat as an indivual just as I don't see the Japanese exchange students as Japanese speaking meat compatible as friends just for their one characteristic of being a Japanese speaker. Now like you said, if someone in Japanese got to know me and said something like "maybe when our friendship grows and we get a little more intimate maybe could I have you let me practice English once in a while if it's not a problem" instead of just running up to me a shouting English words at me in my face and demanding that I speak English, in the polite case maybe I would consent to allowing a little English practice once in a while if I could see a good and honest friend in that person. But the truth is most of those who I have met are the second type which just unexpectly blow your head off with their yelled and forced English. I just don't like those people. If someone who I meet in Japan is too forward with their English, I get really put off them very quickly and think to myself that I don't intend to socialise with that person again, all because they had to be too foward with everything. In those situation my strategy last time was to just keep speaking Japanese and hope that they run out of gas soon and just switch back or hope that they just take a hint and realise that I am not interested in having English language conversations. Next time think I will adopt a new stategy. I will directly say to them that I do not wish to speak English explaining my reasons. If they persist I will simply ignore them. That is my strategy for people who know me. For strangers, I will just say something like I don't know English and just because one is white doesn't necessarilly mean they can speak English. Then, depending on whether I am having a bad day or not, I will continue to explain that their assumption is embarassing to them and totally foolish. I have invented this new Japanese word. 白人語 （white person language) Perhaps I will explain that such language doesn't exist and that English language is not white person language. To any of those who think seriously about language banditory and feel affected by the phenomena, please share your experiences or reactions/ counter-strategies with this thread. Edited by Maximus on 17 January 2009 at 5:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| skeeterses Senior Member United States angelfire.com/games5Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6620 days ago 302 posts - 356 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Korean, Spanish | Message 16 of 140 17 January 2009 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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You guys want some good answers for people who try this English banditry stuff, check out this thread on ESL
Cafe: Snappy Answers to Korean Questions. http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php? t=144940&start=0&sid=0dcb1bbf59f6a6db969a2612846d0124
1 person has voted this message useful |
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