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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6747 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes  Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 17 of 140 17 January 2009 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks Skeeterses. I would only be that rude to a really rude person.
Also, if anyone would like to include in this thread their counter-strategies, could you also discribe in detail the results that you have encountered? Or example what did the bandit do? How did they react? What did the bystanders around you express or how did they react? What did you do afterwards? Ect... Thank you 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5836 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 18 of 140 17 January 2009 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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Regarding English as lingua-franca: No argument there: I personally think we ought to use Esperanto in Europe, not English. It could be used by the European Commisson in Brussels for example, instead of the completly insane and very expensive translation circus that is going on there at the moment. (translation and interpretation of everything into 20 languages at the EU tax-payers expense.. what a waste when there are people in the EU who can't afford to heat their houses in the winter)
Everybody would start off an equal footing (instead of the English and French being at an advantage which is a source of irritation for others). Plus Esperanto is so incredibly easy to learn that significantly less time would have to be spent on learning it, saving time to allow people to effectively learn another language OF THEIR CHOICE (not necessarily English). I tend to speak English with Germans or French people my own age: Although I can speak their language to a basic level, their English is almost always better! For me to insist on speaking German with a German who speaks good English would be some kind of 'thumbs down' vote against his English skills. He might be offended, I am not joking. I'd only switch over if he was struggling and I was fairly certain I could do better in German. The French and German language skills come in handy when travelling on public transport there, when shopping in these countries, or in the rural areas where peoples language skills are poorer. My poor skills in these languages is down to my own laziness in not studying properly - nothing to do with the fact that some natives of these countries prefer to speak English with me... Some tips to avoid the "Language Banditry" phenomenon: -Go to the countryside and not the larger cities; -Approach older people (who have more time on their hands and are less likely to speak English) or people in blue-collar jobs (also less likely to speak English). -Participate in day-to-day normal activities like perhaps going to church, take your kids (if you have) to the playground or join a local organisation. People are less likely to switch to English in everyday situations where they are used to speaking their own language, and where other speakers of your target language are around. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5836 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 19 of 140 17 January 2009 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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Lastly, I forgot: Personally I was TAUGHT that it is rude to speak <local language> when foreigners are around, causing them to be excluded from the conversation.
I was often scolded as when my father had business aquintances over and I chatted in Swedish in front of them. I was told "Speak English, go on, don't be rude". Did others have similar experience? Another thing is; The majority of English-speaking people probably don't mind the situation as it is. For example, my English fiancee who worked in Sweden for over a year was constantly complaining that people were chatting over his head in Swedish. After a year he wasn't able to have any kind of meaningful conversation in Swedish at all. And just think of all the Brits on the Costa del Sol... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Keith Diglot Moderator JapanRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6775 days ago 526 posts - 536 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 140 17 January 2009 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | ||
Please add your new Japanese word to the Japanese-English dictionary. I have provided a link to the New Entry submission form. Edited by Keith on 17 January 2009 at 11:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6747 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 21 of 140 18 January 2009 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Oh, I cannot add it. I cannot have invented it. Google.co.jp brings up about 7 pages. It is not in the dictionary though. It is probably right that is doesn't exist as a real word. Because the idea of a universal white person culture or language doesn't exist.
Cordelia You seem to be passionate about Esperanto as a European lingua franca. Maybe it would be better then Englisgh as a lingua franca if we look at it from the point of view of easiness. I wonder if it is so simple and logical to the extent that it is "unbutcherable". If that was the case it may make communicating for everyone much more easier. For some people, English may take two years or more of study. How long does esperanto take? However, though its level of easiness may have some practicality, it is not going to happen. No one would take it seriously. Esperanto has its lovers and its haters. I maybe fall just onto the haters side of the spectrum by a little. I have heared the sworn users of the language that it is like some kind of linguistic enlightenment for the learner and its cleaver ways of constructing words and expressing things is so logical that it is unbelievable. For that I always had a bit of curiosity on the issue. However, its vocabulary looks so boring. Latinate, Germanic! What can I say! I hate transparency! If it was forced on me in school I would probably reject it. I think I would stick to natural languages. I am interested in cultures, histories, etc... If it was a choice hypothetically betwean English and Esperanto as a lingua franca, I wouldn't know what I would want. Maybe Esperanto so that my own native language can cease to be taken by everyone and so that a sense of national identity can be restored for anglophone speakers. But I would still refuse to learn Esperanto! I would just not have a lingua franca and just wouldn't speak to anybody except people from the counties of the natural languages which I learn. Once someone told me that Turkish would be a good lingua franca in his opinion. Almost all regular. Logical word creation. Phonetic latin script which wouldn't put people of learning it like masses of characters would. I don't know though. I have never experienced Turkish myself. I was also told that it is one of the "easiest" natural languages in the world. However I doubt it. It looks more difficult than western european languages in my opinion. Oh, regarding people being offended if one doesn't speak English with them, that is a point. But I personally cease to care what their thoughts are. You see, I was always timid as a child and as a teenager. I always preoccupied myself with what I perceived to be how others thought about me. I was submissive as a consequence. Submissive to put it politely. My parents have always urged me to be more assertive and dominant. Now I have got to that stage. I now think it is better to dominate others than to be dominated. In addition to this, I have ceased to care what others' feelings towards me are. If the person doesn't know me personally, I think why the heck should I even care what they think. If they are offended, let them be offended! You might not have to speak to them again anyway! If they don't know me, what's the big deal! Nowdays if someone feels that I have a moral obligation to speak with them in a certain language, I don't care and I have no remorse about it. Because know it is my turn to be the pack leader. My parents have now got the kid they always wanted! I don't give an inch! There is one thing that I have experienced. When you live abroad for a while not speaking your own mother tongue for months, which I have experienced, and you don't feel comfortable to switch into the language just like that, it can be frustrating to have others make you change. When you can't gather your thoughts in a certain language because you have only been using one for an extended period of time. I remember almost getting into an argument with this English guy in Spanish school in Spain who was taunting me. Afterwards he appologised to me in English. When I tried to respond in English, I just stuttered because I couldn't gather my thoughts due to zero use for several months. After failing to get out what I wanted to say, I just went back to Spanish and expressed nicely and comfortably what I wanted to say! Now, it is embarrasing if someone makes you speak a language that you feel like you have temporarily "forgotten" and you speak it slowly and brokenly and need thinking time, even though it is your native language. Believe me! That has happened to me! Edited by Maximus on 18 January 2009 at 2:03pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6747 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 22 of 140 18 January 2009 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't think I have had such experiences. But again being called rude doesn't really affect me. I just don't care. In my opinion, being submissive is more embarassing than being rude. Let's be dominant. Those monolingual British people at Costa del Sol aren't exactly models of well intergrated foreigner residents are they? Their situation in which they cannot even be bothered to try to learn the local language of their new permenent residence is just pitiable. Spanish is not exactly impossibily difficult anyway. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5836 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 23 of 140 18 January 2009 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Actually Maximus, I have to admit that I don't really know Esperanto!
It's just recently that I've become a fan. There is this site about an entirely different subject that I am interested in which has a section about Esperanto including some facts and figures about all the benefits... Not so long ago I saw an article in Esperanto about a topic that interested me. The article was not available in any other language. I found that I could understand the geist of it with out problems - despite the fact that I have never studyied Esperanto at all! With some skill in Germanic, Romance and Slavic languages it's a piece of cake. Add to this that it has a deliberately easy grammar with no irregular verbs, etc, etc. -If you know Esperanto it's easier to learn other languages after that. -The language doesn't give anybody an 'unfair' advantage since it will be a second language to all of the speakers. -It takes half the time to learn compared with a 'normal' language, freeing people up to learn non-European languages or get really good at the Euro lang of their choice - instead of having put in endless time at perfecting their English... -It's perfect as a lingua franca for the EU. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5875 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 24 of 140 18 January 2009 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | ||
But your Japanese teacher is a language teacher. He spends most of his day trying to drag Japanese conversation out of people who lack the nimbleness and the willingness to make mistakes in Japanese. He will be happy to speak to someone who is willing to give it a go, and is harldy representative. There is a different way to see these "language bandits" as you call them. I have spent quite a bit of time in Asia, including China and Japan, and (although I speak neither of these languages), certainly never felt that these countries were overflowing with people approaching me on the street to practice their English. I would have loved it if it were the case (given I am all for meeting people and do not speak the local languages), but it just isn't. But lets imagine that there is someone who is approaching you wanting to be your friend because of your English language. Have you never thought to yourself that it might be a great strategy to befriend them, and get yourself invited along to native social gatherings? Because as much as even if we assume that language bandits exist at all, it is certainly not the case that all Japanese or Chinese are learning English and keen to speak to you only in English. If you go along with your language bandit to a native social gathering, you will be introduced to natives that do not speak English, you will be immersed in your native language in a true social way, and your friendship with the language bandit will yield rich opportunities to speak the language. Because when they speak to each other, they will speak in Japanese. Jokes and group conversation at any gathering will be in Japanese. It is up to you to back yourself and jump into the conversation with your own offering. And yes, your Japanese has to be up to scratch to do that. You have to be able to understand the fluent colloquial conversation, and you have to be able to back yourself enough to hold the centre of attention for a minute and speak it with your own contribution with 5 people all looking at you. This has certainly been how I have become friends and gotten inside houses and social events in Quebec. Via making friendships in English that drag me deep into the Francophone world. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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