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Thread on "Language Banditry" | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 33 of 140 19 January 2009 at 10:02am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Not a bad way to handle it.
I've toyed with that idea. If I were more cynical there would be little stopping me from listing on my CV that I have a strong passive understanding of Scots ("Scottish English"). It's disputed whether Scots is a separate language but if English-speakers clung more to the idea that every ethnic group speaks a separate language (regardless of whether the dialects used are mutually intelligible) then a lot of native speakers of English could make a claim for this "linguistic boosting". By the way, Ukrainian and Russian are in my experience distinct enough that they are different languages (but barely) - similar to Finnish and Estonian or German and Dutch. I find that the Balkans can most easily create instant polyglots. I once ran across someone from the former Yugoslavia who boasted of speaking 5 languages: Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian and English. However he admitted privately that for all reasonable intents and purposes Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian differed from each other as American and British English do, while Slovenian was similar enough to a northwestern Croatian dialect that he knew and thus "moving into" Slovenian was fairly painless. However he suspected that uninitiated outsiders wouldn't have realized that before the wars in the Balkans, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian were part of one Serbo-Croatian, and he wasn't in the mood to explain himself by rehashing the politics and nationalism that effected the split. Thus a triglot (counting his grasp of Slovenian) could also pass for a (dubious) pentaglot thanks to politics. Similar but smaller cases can be seen with Romanian and Moldovan or Bulgarian and Macedonian. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 34 of 140 19 January 2009 at 10:56am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I mean to say that English has become widespread because of the economic power of western countries, not that people necessarily care passionately about our culture or it's history. People want to learn it to compete in the business world, among other things. You're right though, I agree. People are learning English without any cultural context, and that is a shame.
This is a good point. I know when I am helping my Japanese friends with their English, I speak to them in English in a way that is natural for native English speakers. I assume they really want to learn it and how it is properly used in western culture... and I appreciate when they do the same in return, so that I don't learn to misuse Japanese in stupid ways that would be considered rude in their culture.
You know, for me personally, languages aren't really a necessity. I'm already a native speaker of English and it is already so widely used where I'm from. It's easy for me to say I do have a genuine interest because I'm learning by choice. This is not something I always feel from English learners, however. When someone expresses a real interest in American culture and starts asking questions about food, music, etc, it makes a very pleasant experience and I am all the more willing to share English with them.
That is a very good strategy and a positive attitude. I think the point is how you go about approaching people. If someone were to pester me rudely while I am obviously busy or working, yeah that would annoy me. If I'm in a check out line, or in the middle of doing my grocery shopping...common sense should tell you it's inappropriate. There's a time and place for everything. On the other hand, if I'm causally hanging out at a bar or sitting on a park bench and someone came up to me in a friendly manner... that is different. Edited by Starfallen on 19 January 2009 at 11:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| musigny Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6023 days ago 57 posts - 61 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2, Japanese Studies: Italian | Message 35 of 140 19 January 2009 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I can't agree with the earlier comment that the language spoken should be English if the other person is stronger in that language. This would make it nearly impossible to learn northern European languages, unless you frequent old-folks homes. Essentially almost any college educated native wouldn't have to bother speaking to foreigners in their tongue at all.
I do understand why there is such a passionate response. Basically, you study a language. You're already a bit nervous and insecure when you try to speak but you have had some wins in the past speaking with people. You ask a question in say, Swedish, and the person responds back in English, not acknowledging that you're speaking in their language. You continue in Swedish and they continue in English. You feel a personal afront. This person is dominating you. They are forcing something on you and making you feel inadequate. They're dismissing your efforts in their language, in fact, not even acknowledging them. A polyglot native speaker of English wouldn't likely do this to someone. Non-native anglophones do, particularly very fluent ones; there is often an air of superiority as they are multi-lingual and it is nothing more than amusing or a nuisance that a native anglophone would feebly attempt to speak a foreign tongue. As I said before, you can tell them in Swedish, "Oh I love Sweden, the saunas, etc. I've come here to learn Swedish. It's such a great language. I hope to be fluent soon." For those of you who study Japanese, I do understand some of the issues. There is a national condition that Japanese readily acknowledge known as English complex (英語コンプレクス). Basically, most Japanese (certainly university educated Japanese) feel they should be able to communicate in English. The bonus with Japanese is that most are not very good at English so if you study hard, you can speak better Japanese than they do English quite quickly. Additionally, most Japanese can't speak English at all. This complex causes a bunch of little quirks. Many who don't speak English well will speak to you in Japanese like you're an infant. My Japanese is pretty fluent so I just tell them in Japanese that I speak Japanese fluently and they can talk at a normal pace. I said this to a flight attendant and the passengers around me started laughing. She spoke to me as if I were an infant because of her own inadequacies in English. When with groups of Japanese it becomes quite interesting. The conversation of course becomes Japanese. Group conversations don't flow well in more than one language in my experience. So if the group is all Japanese except me, the language spoken is of course Japanese. On one occasion there was a woman who I know speaks English quite well. In her head she had a policy that she always speaks English with foreigners. In the context of a group, this posed a problem. If she switched to English when speaking to me, that would be rude to other Japanese who were involved in the conversation as they may not understand. What resulted was she refused to speak to me. She would rather not speak at all than speak Japanese with a foreigner. Many non-native speakers of English just view it as a loss when they speak their native language with anglophones. This is English complex in Japan but certainly exists in other countries. France is a great place to learn a language. Sure there are many French who speak English but similar to the US, UK, etc., they believe they are one of the most monolingual cultures in the world. In addition, they expect foreigners to speak French and are quite used to hearing their language spoken by foreigners. This is a plus. Sure there are always the people who work in tourism that will not acknowledge that you are speaking French and respond automatically in English but they are usually telling you where the bathroom is. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Goindol Senior Member United States Joined 6076 days ago 165 posts - 203 votes | Message 36 of 140 19 January 2009 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
So let me get this straight. You're in China as a linguistic parasite, and yet you complain that the Chinese are doing the same thing to you? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 37 of 140 19 January 2009 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I kind of have to agree, that does sound a bit bitter. I don't think that languages are something to be mastered or dominated... I think if you enter relationships with foreigners with this kind of attitude, you're setting yourself up to have a bad experience. I personally don't like it when foreigners come to America acting superior, and yet feel like they have a right to our schools and jobs. So why would you live in a country with the attitude that it is only good for one thing? And as far as Japan goes... a lot of what I read about white English speaking Americans being offended is stuff African Americans, Asian Americans, and other minority groups have complained about in our own country for years (being distrusted by the police, questioned about your language skills/education, etc). Except now the shoe is on the other foot. I'm not saying it's right, but personally I'm white and not used to being a minority. I take it for granted, and it's just not something I think about from day to day. It's not quite the same as traveling to Europe where there are other white people and you can kind of blend in. I know it would be quite shocking for me to live in another country where suddenly *I'm* the one who is different, and suddenly the pressure is on *me* to prove I'm an equal member of society worthy of their trust. Edited by Starfallen on 19 January 2009 at 2:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| musigny Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6023 days ago 57 posts - 61 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2, Japanese Studies: Italian | Message 38 of 140 19 January 2009 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's not really the case in Japan. You are treated differently but 80% of it is positive rather than negative. It's not like being a minority in the US. I don't think any minority in the US could say that 80% of the time they are treated better than the average American. Sure 20% of it is negative, but it is only 20% and just part and parcel with being different from 99% of the population. On a Japan Airline flight my boss (whose was Japanese) was told that a certain meal had ran out. When I ordered it right after him, they said, right away sir, with no issue brought up. This was in business class and he was my boss. He was furious! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Starfallen Groupie United States Joined 5819 days ago 43 posts - 49 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 39 of 140 19 January 2009 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This is good to know! Personally, I've read blogs and personal accounts of Americans being offended by the way Japanese tend to be "overly impressed" with your skills in Japanese...no matter how awful you actually are. Or your ability to use chopsticks (which I'll admit I still can't do!) It's considered condescending. But I've heard from just as many who have had wonderful visits in the country. Edited by Starfallen on 19 January 2009 at 2:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| musigny Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6023 days ago 57 posts - 61 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2, Japanese Studies: Italian | Message 40 of 140 19 January 2009 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Oh I've experienced that as well. If you say "Hello" in Japanese, people will say, "Oh you speak Japanese so well!" as if they just saw a monkey do a trick. It can seem a little patronizing and sometimes is but its cultural. They tend to say the same things to each other about other abilities. First, there are not a lot of foreigners who can really hold a conversation in Japanese despite the appearance of so many people studying the language. I find the language much easier than most european languages except for the script. So a Japanese speaking foreigner is a rarity indeed in most parts of Japan and the world for that matter. One thing that I try to keep in mind is that I've spoken to hundreds of Japanese, maybe more, in Japanese but for a Japanese person, it may be the first time they've spoken Japanese with a foreigner. While it's a very common experience for me, it is a very unique experience for them. There is a sort of dichotomy there. Edited by musigny on 19 January 2009 at 3:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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