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Racism and Language Learning | ||
Tags: Discrimination | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Tabula Rasa Newbie United States Joined 5726 days ago 7 posts - 12 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Greek | Message 49 of 90 18 April 2009 at 7:02am | IP Logged | ||
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This thread is six pages and no one has actually suggested an answer for Ashley? I understand where the
question is coming from. I'm not sure if any of you have had the experience of traveling somewhere and getting poor service, hostile stares, whispered comments...you don't know if it's because the people you come across are having a bad day, or maybe they just don't like outsiders in general. But some travelers have to consider that maybe they are being disregarded, ignored, or outright harassed simply because they are black. Some people really do have negative experiences traveling in certain areas because of the color of their skin. They do. Not everyone who travels gets to be that quaint and highly respected white person who charms the natives with a few words of the local language. Or even just the person who doesn't stand out like sore thumb. I speak from experience from living in a part of the world where brown people put white people on a pedestal and consider dark skin to be undesirable -- the type of place where the grocery store has aisles of skin whitening creams. The fact is that colorism, if not outright racism, exists in pretty much every country in the world. But face it, some countries have a known reputation for being just a bit harder on those with African descent, mmkay? Learning a language is HARD. It is a huge commitment of time and energy. Whether you agree with it or not, most people who choose to learn a language do it for practical reasons, not because it seems cool or has interesting orthography or whatever. One of the most common reasons for learning a language (outside of checking the box for graduation requirements) is because that person plans to live and travel in a country where said language is spoken. And people select such countries for a variety of reasons -- work, school, cultural interest, shopping opportunities.... No one gives a second thought when a white person says he wants to learn Japanese because he finds the culture fascinating. No one gives a second thought when a white person says he does not want to learn Japanese because he isn't particularly interested in traveling there. But when a black person says she is hesitant to put an enormous amount of energy into learning a language she may not get to use because she does not think she would have a positive experience being in countries where that language is commonly spoken, people jump down her throat. I find it insulting when people who don't experience discrimination (the same people who insist they don't have a prejudicial bone in their body) try to convince people who DO experience in regularly that it's all in their heads. Okay, let me get off my soapbox and actually answer the original question. Any western European language should be fine. If you want to avoid the obvious choices of French and Spanish, Portuguese is versatile because it's the official language or a heritage language in at least one country on almost every continent. I would avoid Italian unless you have a musical or artistic interest or plan to travel to Eritrea in eastern Africa. I think Italy is one of the most racist countries in Western Europe. My opinion, of course, no need to respond with pages of how wrong I am just because I've had numerous bad experiences traveling in Italy. Other ideas for good travel places...Turkish (I'm biased), Hebrew (most Israelis speak English though), Thai. Other ideas for good languages to know from a current events perspective (you never know when that could come in handy to boost your paycheck; speakers of these languages also form large migrant communities in the U.S.)...Arabic, Persian, Mandarin. Hope this helps. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| nissimb Tetraglot Groupie India tenjikuyamato.blogsp Joined 6420 days ago 79 posts - 102 votes  Speaks: Marathi*, Hindi, English, Japanese Studies: Korean, Esperanto, Indonesian | Message 50 of 90 18 April 2009 at 7:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Ashley,
I have read your original post and the corresponding replies with interest. As Tabula Rasa has already suggested a few languages, I would also suggest learning Indian languages such as Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, Tamil etc. Skin color does not cause problems in India. Of course, many Indians still have preference for "fair" skin, that is why skin whitening lotions and creams sell like hot cakes among Indian women :) But we have millions of brownish or dark-skinned Indians, myself included, so skin color is not much of an issue here. (Of course, we have "unofficial" discrimination and prejudices based on the traditional Indian caste system, but it has nothing to do with color and as a foreigner, you would be outside its scope.) I can assure you that in India people would genuinely appreciate your efforts to learn Indian languages. (Many would be amused and wonder as to why you bothered to take the efforts). Besides, it will also open the doors to Indian culture, which you can keep on discovering for a lifetime!! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| vientito Senior Member Canada Joined 6344 days ago 212 posts - 281 votes | Message 51 of 90 18 April 2009 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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there is a way out of this to learn a language. with advance of the internet, we don't even have to walk out of home to learn a language. for example, i learn quite a bit of korean simply downloading episodes and learn on my own like that.
fear of being victimized does not build on no foundation. innate fear of a female walking at night on a deserted part of a city does not found on nothing. it is very real. then comes in with quality of being street-smart. in every situation there are smart ways to manoeuver your way around. example, in certain eastern region in russia, there is in fact quite a substantial number of chinese merchants but it is said that you don't see them on the street in broad daylight. they exist and they thrive in a very hostile and non-enviable environment. on a street, all social justice is pure talk out of an ivory tower. the street has its way to settle things. i don't question the poster intention of learning a particular language. everyone has his or her own reason. what i do want to emphasize is that in EVERY scenario there exists a POTENTIAL solution to it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| joha87 Newbie United States Joined 5752 days ago 14 posts - 21 votes Studies: Korean, English* Studies: German | Message 52 of 90 18 April 2009 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | ||
Just want to rep this post. It's a very good post. I would have to say Russia is probably not a good choice for a person of color. In light of the current economic and political climate in Russia, neo-nazi groups have been on the rise, and there are many serious Neo-Nazis who will and do engage in violent hate crimes against people of color. Not to say that all Russians are racist, obviously, but there IS a serious problem with racism and neo-nazi groups in Russia right now. And a lot of times, these violent crimes are committed randomly, in public, without provocation or warning. As for western Europe, to echo Tabula Rasa, a friend of mine also found Italy quite racist, which echoes what a lot of other friends have told me. I've also heard that Spain can be pretty bad in that regard. But not to the extent where you would face actual physical danger like in Russia, so they are definitely not too bad, probably not any worse than Georgia. The rest of Western Europe and probably Oceania as well, shouldn't be too different from, say, the more liberal parts of the United States. East Asia is actually not as bad as many people say. Yeah, there are a lot ignorant attitudes and perceptions of black people, but it really is out of mostly ignorance. For most East Asians, the only experience they have with blacks is probably American TV, so a lot of negative stereotypes in American Media is picked up by them. But East asians mainly don't see people in racial groups like those in the West do, but instead in terms of a foreigner/native dichotomy. Black people are just foreigners like white people, mainly, but it does have to be said that Asians do treat white people a little more positively sometimes. But you won't have to worry about much hostile racism and it won't match the discrimination Asians exhibit towards other Asian ethnicities. In my experience, the most racist people I've found in Japan so far, are some of the bitter white expatriates in Japan. I don't know too much about South America, but Africa and parts of the Caribbean are some obvious choices. It's true that a lot of African countries are not the safest place but there are plenty of stable countries that seem very interesting, like Ghana and Kenya. I know it's kind of cliche, but researching your roots and learning the language and visiting the country of your heritage can be an enlightening and interesting pursuit. That's what I'm going to do with Korean, German, and Scottish Gaelic. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6445 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 53 of 90 18 April 2009 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have to agree about Italy, unfortunately. I'd say the worst prejudice there is against the gypsies, and people don't tend to be physically unsafe because of how they look, but it's not what I'd call a happily integrated and tolerant society in this regard either. I'd also say Switzerland is not great in this regard; how bad it is varies regionally. The African refugees I know here are uniformly a bit unhappy about how they're treated; the African non-refugees are somewhat happier, but tend to move on, to more tolerant places, within a few years.
In general, I'd say many parts of Switzerland are extremely insular with respect to outsiders, regardless of race: outsiders are tolerated as residents (in large numbers - not far from 20% of the population of the country), or even as naturalized citizens, but... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ashley_Victrola Senior Member United States Joined 5712 days ago 416 posts - 429 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, Romanian | Message 54 of 90 18 April 2009 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks. I'm getting a lot of really good answers that I couldn't necessarily just look up.
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| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6131 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 55 of 90 18 April 2009 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think being a minority, that is looking physically different, in the USA basically prepares you for being a minority in other countries. I'm an ambiguously non-white looking human here in the USA, and in Japan, I'm one more half-Japanese looking person. In Finland I was this sort of slightly dark looking foreign person. You know the deal, I think. People make assumptions based on your appearance, and maybe there is a little bit of distance, or a few strange questions now and then. (Though for me, personally, my ability to interact has always been very limited due to my inability with understanding the language.)
Just going by what I read online, in Japan at least, the cranky gaijin are mostly the white guys going over there expecting to fit in like they do here in the states, but who experience being a minority for the first time in their life. You'll be fine. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachgenie Decaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5715 days ago 128 posts - 165 votes Speaks: German*, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Faroese, Icelandic, Flemish, Persian, Swiss-German Studies: English, Belarusian | Message 56 of 90 20 April 2009 at 3:19am | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with the original poster in this thread. People tend to forget about the government sponsored discrimination in Western Europe however. This is especially prevalent in Germany where the current German government is increasingly actively persecuting and discriminating against many Muslims who practice their religion and adhere to the Koran.
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