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Racism and Language Learning | ||
Tags: Discrimination | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6671 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes  Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 81 of 90 30 May 2009 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
The American bases are concentrated in the former American sector (which is in Southern Germany), there's no (or close to no) American presence in the rest of the country. By the way, I used to live in Kaiserslautern, where there is the biggest American military community outside the U.S. It comprises close to 50000 people (for comparison: Kaiserslautern has only 100000 inhabitants), so you'd expect a lot of American presence in the city. But except for a few people shopping and some people in bars, it's a city as German as any other and the Americans largely stay among themselves, having their own infrastructure with restaurants, shopping malls, clubs, etc. Rather unfairly, Germans are not allowed to go to the American shops, while Americans buy in German shops AND get a refund for the German VAT. Edited by Marc Frisch on 30 May 2009 at 8:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| pmiller Account terminated Groupie Canada Joined 5680 days ago 99 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* | Message 82 of 90 01 June 2009 at 1:52am | IP Logged | |||||
Wow - that's surprising to me. Do you know the history of this relationship? How did it get to be that Germans aren't allowed in the American shops, and why do the Americans largely also avoid the German city? Were there some incidents early on that might explain this situation? As an American, I'm sorry to hear it's like that. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Dark_Sunshine Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5771 days ago 340 posts - 357 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 83 of 90 01 June 2009 at 2:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think it's just a matter of security. My brother in law lived in Germany when he was in the British army, and these shops, bars etc are on the military bases- only army personnel and their families are allowed in. The military tend to form large ex-pat communities and probably don't feel the need to integrate into German society since they're there only temporarily. Also few of them really learn the language or want to.
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| pmiller Account terminated Groupie Canada Joined 5680 days ago 99 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* | Message 84 of 90 01 June 2009 at 4:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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Still, it's a shame... we're supposed to be allies, but this arrangement seems less than friendly. I still don't understand why it should be this way - maybe right after the war I could understand - maybe the allied soldiers didn't feel so welcome in a recently defeated Germany (or what?) But today?
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| Dark_Sunshine Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5771 days ago 340 posts - 357 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 85 of 90 01 June 2009 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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But it's not just Germans who aren't allowed in! When my father, my brother and I (all British) went to visit, my brother-in-law had to give our details to the British army in advance of the trip so that we could be vetted. They even found out about my brother's criminal conviction from his teenage years and he was called on to explain himself! The same is true of British military bases in the UK- not just anyone can walk in, they are and always have been prime targets for terrorism.
As for why ex-pat soldiers don't explore the local communities though (although this is a wild generalisation and some of them actually do, as far as is possible), that's another issue altogether. Military communities in general tend to be quite insular wherever they are in the world. I could speculate as to why this is, but it's way off topic and I might end up upsetting a few people so I'm not going to go there... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6671 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 86 of 90 01 June 2009 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think it's quite normal that they don't let anybody shop in their malls, for security reasons. It's not that the Americans avoid the city, but they have their own infrastructure so they don't really need to go there. Edited by Marc Frisch on 01 June 2009 at 4:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Olekander Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5889 days ago 122 posts - 136 votes Speaks: English*, French, Russian | Message 87 of 90 01 June 2009 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Ashley,
Firstly I would just like to put in my input as to this conversation. I am very happy it has not been shut down, but all in all, I think it is VERY UNUSUAL for linguists to become biggots, because I think I speak on the behalf of many people here, we love as much the culture behind the language we learn, as much as the language itself. So it is very contradictory, in my opinion, to be a linguist and also to be a blatent racist. So on those grounds, I'm not suprised this post is still open, people here are well behaved individuals. As for the question at hand. 1)i I went to St. Peterburg not all that long ago, and whilst I saw no Black Russian speakers, I did meet one charming Black American woman who was a concert pianist there. I couldn't help but ask her how she had found the Russian attitude towards her being there because I had thought it may have been inhospitable, and she replied that she had found no problem at all, and that the Russians she had met were very welcoming. I think perhaps she was meeting a very limited range of people, don't get me wrong, Russia has only recently become a fairly safe country to visit, and so they are still learning a lot about multiculturalism, but this seems good testimony. ii In addition to the forementioned, it is always the case that WHATEVER country you go in, if you go to the "wrong" parts of town, you're bound to have a nasty time. In London there are certain areas where a whiteman would never be safe going, and that is the same for a blackman, woman in your case, in Moscow or St Peterburg. The educated majority of these cities live in the popular touristy parts and I have no hesitation in saying you would have no racism at all there. And ultimately, you have no real need to go to any other part if you simply want to practise your russian, because the poorer people speak no English at all even at the tourist destination!! They will be overjoyed to speak Russian with you. 2) I think as a rule I have certainly not met that many black linguists at all in my experiences in travel, I can't say why this is, but simply and observation. So in this respect I have a question for you if you agree with me? Has this hindered your learning process at all? BUT I think this is an advantage! Because the person you are talking to in the native country, Russia here, would surely be very interested to get you know you, and why you have a particular interest in his language and culture. You may find you make some excellent contacts whilst you're over there, simply because you are black and speak Russian! So I say always try and find positives from negatives (in this case lack of understanding from some Russians towards other ethnic groups). Finally. The Russians have a history of being awkward towards anyone who isn't "Moscovian Russian". Look how they persecuted the Kazakh, and the Baltic people, the other indiginous ethnic minorities in their country. They are a learning people, so the more you expose yourself to them, the more they will understand. I realise I've made a gross generalisation with the Russian people, but I am in essence defending them. I love Russia and its Culture so in conclusion DON'T MISS OUT ON A GREAT OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE OF PREJUDICES!! I am without a doubt sure you would love your experience there! Edited by Olekander on 01 June 2009 at 4:27pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6278 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 88 of 90 01 June 2009 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I remember being in Bavaria in the early 1970s (I was aged about nine). I went through this chocolate-boxy Bavarian village that was like a backdrop in The Sound Of Music, through a guarded gate (with one of my parents) and into a US military base that was a grim but self-contained world with its own facilities. At the time there were Red Army Faction attacks on US personnel and facilities, but even allowing for that it was a self-contained American military island in a German sea.
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