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Learning one language through another | ||
Tags: L3 via L2 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6008 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 9 of 15 02 July 2009 at 11:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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That's not sequential reinforcement -- sequential reinforcement is an essentially behaviourist term, and it means doing similar tasks lots of times to get a feel for the correct answer/result.
This is a topic that's come up several times, and many people say "good thing", others say "bad thing". One thing that's certain is that for it to work, you've got to be pretty good at the language you're using to learn the new one -- you need to be able to understand what you're reading/hearing. If you have to "decode" it, then you won't connect with the material and it won't stick. School studies probably won't be good enough. Edited by Cainntear on 02 July 2009 at 11:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 15 02 July 2009 at 11:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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There are several issues involved here. The first problem is that for a certain target language you may sometimes find better textbooks, dictionaries and grammars in another language than your native one. And of course this is more likely to hapen if your native language isn't a big one (I as a Dane should know that). However I wouldn't want to do this if I didn't know the base language of those books very well. Learning an unknown language through a badly known language is in my eyes not only a waste of your time, but quite simply a receipt for disaster.
The other issue is the one raised by Le Dacquois, namely that you hear two languages simultaneously in your head while studying a target language through a foreign base language (or maybe even three, because you might also have thoughts running in your native language). This sounds confusing, but I actually have used this language mingling proces consciously in two ways: hyperliteral translations and 'intermediary' languages. When I have started to study new totally new languages I have found it helpful to make translations where the translation is extremely close to the original, even to the point of including grammatical annotation (I was inspired to do this by the German Kauderwälsch series, but you also see it in some language guides). It is best to do this with bilingual texts where you also have a 'normal' translation to avoid gross misunderstandings, but the point is that you afterwards can read through the target language text in almost normal tempo because the hyperliteral version functions as crutch. This would ideally be performed with your native language as a base, but I normally let the language of the available 'normal' translation decide the language of the hyperliteral translation. The other technique is to learn a new language through a closely related language which you already knows fairly well, for instance Afrikaans through Dutch or Portuguese through Spanish. The idea is that to get a language activitated in your brain you have to learn to think in it, starting with single words and short phrases and ending up with complete sentences. If you want to kickstart this process then you can use the better known language as a skeleton to which you can attach the words and phrases you learn in your new language in order to get a continuous stream of thinking. Of course there is a grave danger in this, namely that the structures from the better known language become part and parcel of your version of the new language, but if you know what you are doing and stay focussed on cutting down on the 'crutch' language then it is in my eyes permissible - for a short time! But most teachers would probably not trust their pupils enough to let them try this technique. Edited by Iversen on 02 July 2009 at 11:16am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kerateo Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5643 days ago 112 posts - 180 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English, French Studies: Italian | Message 11 of 15 04 July 2009 at 6:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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Actually, im a native Spanish speaker learning french, i've been using the regular methods (michel thomas, pimsleur, etc) which are all in English and you know what?, my English is improving A LOT, if i used to understand 90 percent of spoken English now i unsterstand 99. Also theres an interesting thing about my learning of French: when pimsleur ask me a question in English to be answer on french im unable to translate it to Spanish then to English and then to french instantaneously so you force your mind to THINK in french. Conclusion, actually is BETTER to learn a language through another, when im through french ill try to learn German through french.
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| jismith1989 Tetraglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5620 days ago 9 posts - 9 votes Speaks: English*, Greek, Latin, French | Message 12 of 15 04 July 2009 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
Isn't that what's happening here? Reading one language (more often than would otherwise be done) in order, ostensibly, to learn another language, but, importantly, improving one's performance in the first language because of the reinforcement involved. Edited by jismith1989 on 04 July 2009 at 2:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| AntoniusBlock Diglot Newbie Sweden Joined 5920 days ago 31 posts - 36 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 13 of 15 04 July 2009 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, that is true. I have noticed that effect very clearly. If I am learning through a language that I don't know very well, it forces me to focus more on the target language and draw out more information from the target language context itself. Thus I am pulled quicker into thinking and operating within the target language itself, and I don't rely on the "help-language" more than what is necessary. At the same time, I am reinforcing/practising my skills in the help-language. Learning through ones own native language (or another really strong language) is a bit like looking at the target language through a pair of glasses. Everything looks sharp, detailed and in focus, but in reality everything is coloured by the glasses. The sense of precision is partially due to distortion. On the other hand, learning through a weaker language is a bit like using a pair of crutches, they give some support but you are forced to focus much more on the target language itself.
Yes, I think that is often the case. It may at times be easier to learn through ones own native language, but that advantage comes at a price. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Carisma Diglot Senior Member Argentina Joined 5619 days ago 104 posts - 161 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC1 Studies: Italian, Mandarin | Message 14 of 15 05 July 2009 at 2:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am learning German through English and Spanish. There are not good online lessons in
Spanish, but my manuals are in Spanish. If you want to learn some language that it is not really common, it is more than possible that you'll have to do this, especially if your native language is not English. If it is difficult to find material for English speakers in certain languages, it is going to be almost impossible to find material in your own native language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6269 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 15 of 15 05 July 2009 at 2:49am | IP Logged | |||||
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If you are using one L2 to study another L2, you are basically giving them both a workout, which has advantages and disadvantages.
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