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Traditional and Simplified Chinese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5652 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 1 of 80 18 July 2009 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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I was recently reading up on this and was surprised to find that about 2/3 of them are identical which made me wonder whether it's common practice for people to use a mixture of the two instead of a pure form when not in formal writing.
Also at the moment I'm sort of flirting with the idea of taking up Mandarin, I'll probably be spending some time in mainland China so the simplified alphabet would be more useful but I'd like to be fluent with both alphabets so I thought maybe I should study the Traditional as I'll probably pick up on the Simplified with exposure whereas I wouldn't do so well the other way around. To people who have more experience though, does this seem like a good idea? Is it normal for Chinese people to be able to use both? How useful is it to be able to use both as opposed to one? Sorry for the very probably stupid questions but I'm pretty new to all this, I only found out that there were two main forms of writing yesterday! Edited by WillH on 18 July 2009 at 1:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5845 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 2 of 80 18 July 2009 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am no expert, so let's wait for the Chinese members of the forum to comment.
However, in my experience from Singapore and Hongkong, they do NOT appear to mix them much, and often the same text is repeated in both on signs and important information. Singapore Chinese (use smplified) and Taiwan Chinese (traditional) have a lot of interaction in business and family connections. But I do not know how they write their documentation or which written form is used in their interaction with each other. Frankly, with China rising like an unstoppable giant in the region at the moment, it really seems inevitable that Simplfied wins out in the long run. In Singapore, the governement realised this in the 1970s and decided to switch from traditional to simplified. People working for the govenment had to start using simplified although I wouldn't know how hard or easy this was! Singaporeans are now finding that this policy served them very well, since business with China is booming. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6709 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 3 of 80 18 July 2009 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | ||
What do you mean by "not in formal writing"? If you mean in emails to friends and such, Taiwanese use purely traditional characters. That's because the character input software is designed to only give either traditional or simplified characters, and doesn't switch between them. In handwriting, Taiwanese will use simplified characters, but not always the Mainland versions. The mainland simplified characters are based on traditional handwritten characters, a lot of which are still used by people who use traditional characters. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5772 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 4 of 80 18 July 2009 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | ||
The simplified characters, as is standard in PRC and Singapore, can be categorized roughly as: 1) standardization of traditional handwriting practice (画 for 畫) 2) regularization of cursive characters (书 for 書) 3) substitution of simple ancient variants for more complex modern character. (气 for 氣) 1) is by definition shared in Traditional-using regions. For 2) as every Sinophone writes a bit of cursive, you can recognize them when reading it written by someone Traditional-educated, but it's definitely of another form than the corresponding simplified character. For 3), as it's somewhat of an innovation, it's limited to the Simplified world, and its use will either result in incomprehension or "You are not educated so you write homophones". Edited by minus273 on 18 July 2009 at 10:10pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6901 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 80 19 July 2009 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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I find that Chinese speakers who are used to traditional characters, eg. from Taiwan, will suffer the occasional slip and write a traditional character even when they are trying to write in simplified.
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| Z.J.J Senior Member China Joined 5615 days ago 243 posts - 305 votes Speaks: Mandarin* | Message 6 of 80 20 July 2009 at 9:44am | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry, I'm not proficient in English translation, the following post was written by me on a Chinese blog website, and it's hard to be translated into good English in detail.
Title: 10 defects of Simplified characters (簡化字之十大弊端). I'm from Mainland China, but I do support Traditional characters, as follows: 談一下簡化字（所謂的規範字），不少同胞說 過，與其恢復正體字，不如改用甲骨文（或篆 字），這種說法是非常謬誤的，也是造成誤區 的主因之一，我在此想重申：甲骨文和篆字都 是漢字的原始初級階段，而正體字是高度發展 之後形成的成熟漢字。简体字之“各项弊端” 如下： 一、 康熙字典中收漢字四萬餘，說文解字中收漢字 九千餘，漢語專業者識漢字七千左右，台灣常 用漢字為4800個，大陸常用漢字 3500個，而簡� �� �� ��漢字只有2200餘個（中 截止），但有些� � �字 未被改善，而某些不應簡化、或非理性簡化的 漢字卻比比皆是。 二、 漢字的閱讀都是以圖像姿態進行的，而并非是 一筆一劃地細看細數，閱讀的速度與筆劃的數 目不成正比關係，況且某些簡化字之平均減筆 數目僅比正體字多出兩三筆。 三、 漢字的形體越相近，就越不易辨認，越不易校 對，閱讀效率也低。簡體字造成了很多形似字 ，增加了閱讀時和排版時會出錯的機率。簡體 字默認的“宋體/新宋體”遠不 正體字的“� � � �明體/新細明體”更清晰、 美觀、更精細� � � 四、簡化字採取“多繁對一簡”的原則，致使 漢字的表意功能削弱，需更依賴上下文才能準 確理解文意，因而影響了閱讀效率。“多繁對 一簡”，導致了對漢字本義理解上的困難。例 如：干（乾、幹、榦）、发（發、髮）、脏（ 髒、臟）、系（係、繫）、冲（沖、衝）、余 （餘）、后（後）、几（幾）、丑（醜）、只 （隻）、斗（鬥）、松（鬆）、准（準）。 括弧前是繁體誤寫，括弧裡是繁體正寫，以下 誤寫理應歸罪於簡體字『多繁合一簡』之原則 。 1，幹燥（乾燥）、乾活兒（幹 兒）、幹涉� � � �干涉）。 2，髮揮（發揮）、頭發（頭髮）。 3，面條（麵條）、表麵（表面）。 4，衝水（沖水）、沖鋒（衝鋒）。 5，余地（餘地）、餘『我』（余『我』）。 6，皇後（皇后）、之后（之後）。 7，茶幾（茶几）、几乎（幾乎）。 8，醜時（丑時）、丑陋（醜陋）。 9，只言片語（隻言片語）、隻有（只有）。 10，斗爭（鬥爭）、北鬥（北斗）。 11，鬆柏（松柏）、輕松（輕鬆）。 12，標准（標準）、批準（批准）。 13，制造（製造）、製度（制度）。 14，裡程（里程）、那里（那裡 。『“裏”� �� �� ��“裡”的“異體”』。 15，复（覆、復、複） （1）覆：答覆/回覆/傾覆； （2）復：復活/復興/恢復； （3）複：複雜/繁複/複查； （4）“回覆”和“回復”，在 “回答”義� � � �可通用。 五、 簡化字違反了六書原則，本身亦不是一套有系 統的造字法，導致漢字的科學性和邏輯性變差 。反之，正體字在結構上較有規律，較易理解 、記憶、和學習。正體字并非“煩體字”，而 是中華文明世代傳承的強大工具，更是偉大漢 族同胞在精神上最有效的凝固劑。 六、簡化字以同一符號取代不同偏旁（萬能字 符“又”和“メ”），以致字形無理據可言。 例如：鸡（雞）、汉（漢）、欢（歡）、仅（ 僅）、权（權）、凤（鳳）、邓（鄧）、戏（ 戲）、树（樹）、对（對）、轰（轟）、。。 。其中“又”部均代表不同的字形，讓人摸不 著頭腦，找不到依據。再如：赵（趙）、风（ 風）、冈（岡）等字亦是如此。 七、 將“行草字”任意“楷書化”的漢字，字形亦 無理論依據，且無法以此類推，舉一反三。例 如：韦（韋）、车（車）、东（東）、头（頭 ）等。新造新聲字不精確，較易造成誤讀。例 如：跃（跃）、灿（灿）、价（价）、坝（坝 ）等。 八、大陸若想真正減少文盲（半文盲），還須 考慮很多其它因素，例如：教育的普及度可能 影響更大。如今，希望工程雖已初見成效，但 相對於基數龐大的農村人口，普遍落後的教室 校舍，捉襟見肘的師資份額，恐怕想讓多數人 受益仍是杯水車薪，急需政界、商界、及各界 華人關注教育、多做善事、貢獻力量。另外， 小學生、中學生的學業負擔太重？請教師不要 罰學生抄寫數十遍、上百遍作業就行了，根本 問題還在於教育方式，早晚自習、中午補課、 假期補習、大考小考、學生分數與教師利益掛 鉤、。。。依我看來，這些弊端遠比恢復繁體 字要嚴重得多，但我贊成有少量“特繁字”可 考慮合理簡化，俗體字和異體字理應棄用。 九、古代中國的民間市井，也有一些人書寫俗 /異體字，但值得注意的是，那 不規範的漢� � � �只流通於日常瑣事，比如：隨手寫個記事帖 � �留言條、親友間非正式的書札或底稿，而官 � �正規的書籍、詞典、經書、詩詞文章、公文 � �書，一律只得用正體字書寫或印刷。至於手 � �體，我覺得可以不限制民間的俗異字，不過 � �所有正式的、官方的各種媒體及印刷品（公 � �、報刊、電視臺、詞典、書籍等）理應采用 � �體字，對於印刷機和電腦來講，并不存在任 � �效率和技術問題，印刷繁體也是固定工序， � �刷簡體依然如此，至於電腦更是無所不能了 � �故此，想當然認為繁體字有損效率的觀點， � �是經由表面錯覺而轉達給人們的夸張現象。 十、簡化字并不是經濟發展、科技進步、社會 民主的催化劑。好多同胞至今仍未理解“文化 ”和“科技”的區別，誤以為“簡體字”等於 “搞科研”，“簡體字”等於“ 生產力”，“簡體字”等 “新社會”， 故此 ，才有“偽學者”評價“正體字”是塊臭“裹 腳布”，一旦提到“簡體字”，這些人就會誤 認為“經濟繁榮”、”科技發展“、“社會穩 定”、“人文進步”都是拜“簡體字”所賜。 而繁體字代表著“封建的制度”、“落後的科 技”、和“倒退的人文”，看來文革的餘毒未 消，貽害了無數中國人。反觀日本、韓國、台 灣、香港，都在用著中華的正體字（日本有少 量“和製漢字”），且台灣和日本的國語辭典 依然維持“豎排版”的模式。改用簡體字的大 陸不是應該比他們更發達、更輝煌，更進步嗎 ？還有當年廢止“二簡字“又說明什麽？ Edited by Z.J.J on 20 July 2009 at 9:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Z.J.J Senior Member China Joined 5615 days ago 243 posts - 305 votes Speaks: Mandarin* | Message 7 of 80 20 July 2009 at 11:23am | IP Logged | ||
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In brief:
1. Those characters which shouldn't be simplified were arbitrarily simplified, while those which should be simplified still maintain their original appearance. The same parts of characters are simplified in some characters, and not so in other characters. 2. Reading the articles in traditional characters is as fast as the simplified ones. It almost takes the same time to understand their meanings. 3. After simplification, some simplified characters seem very close to the other ones in appearance, and become harder to avoid confusion. 4. Combining several character into one, just like consolidating X Y Z into X. Then the X characters also have the other meanings of Y and Z, and it brings a lot of confusion when tracing back to original characters. 5. Chinese characters play an important role of national cohesion and unification. No matter which dialect you speak, everybody has been always using the same Chinese characters in China. 6. Some universal parts, such as 又, メ, and so on, are regarded as simple X Y Z that occur frequently in mathematics, and used everywhere without any justifications. And those simplified ones cannot be deduced by analogy then. 7. Some cursive script in handwriting replaced the regular script to be the official standard. it destroyed the original appearance, too. 8. Educational system is the key point to wipe out illiteracy, instead of Simplified characters, and actually Traditional characters have no guilty. 9. Non-standard characters should be forbidden especially in mainstream publications such as dictionaries, books, documents, magazines, newspapers, and in formal places. 10. Simplified characters are absolutely not science and technology, frankly it's of little value for all kinds of development, and Simplified even cuts off China's culture and history to some extent. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5652 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 8 of 80 20 July 2009 at 11:51am | IP Logged | ||
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In mainland China is any media still produced in tradional characters or has it been completely wiped out?
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