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How Krashen will delay your fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| J-Learner Senior Member Australia Joined 6031 days ago 556 posts - 636 votes  Studies: Yiddish, English* Studies: Dutch | Message 33 of 81 31 July 2009 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Too many corrections could come about if you do try to do too far beyond your ability in speaking/writing. Even the most critical of teachers can't over-correct if you don't make too many mistakes.
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| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6273 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 34 of 81 31 July 2009 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have probably posted about this before, but Krashen featured in a British TV programme about language learning. A clip of him was shown giving a talk in which he illustrated how to get meaning across. He seems to prefer simple sentences and a lot of gesticulation. I haven't studied his theories or techniques in any depth.
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| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5767 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 35 of 81 31 July 2009 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The most relevant first. If a learner of, let's say German, Spanish or Russian produces a sentence that has: the wrong grammatical person, the wrong tense (eg. simple past where perfect tense sounds better) and a slightly odd-sounding word, it's probably the best choice to correct only the person at this stage, and leave tense and vocabulary for later. Of course people will try to say things that are way over their head. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| healing332 Senior Member United States Joined 5621 days ago 164 posts - 211 votes | Message 36 of 81 31 July 2009 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually I have never written in Spanish( I did learn to speak and understand all Spanish in 5 months..i really do not care who believes me..) but did it in real time on that thread so..you are wrong as usual Zocurtis..as for online translations..i use NO translations for Swedish or any language..also someone argued with you and said when i wrote Spanish that he understood me perfectly..so please stop your nonsense zocutis..or zoolander or whatever you are called.. I will post in any language I am studying and I have no ego about mistakes which is why I speak from day 1..i fear no one...that why I learn so well a new language I see you are "trying" to study Spanish..having a little difficulty? Edited by healing332 on 31 July 2009 at 8:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 6080 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 37 of 81 31 July 2009 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think the point was that your 5-month method did not bring you to the kind of fluency that a lot of people here are looking for. Fluent understandable Spanish and fluent Spanish are two quite different things. While it was probably very understandable, many learners here want something more out of their studies, for instance working in the target language or at least speaking with the same proficiency as a native - perhaps in an accent but at least with the same word and grammar usage.
The problem with your method in that respect is that you tend to shoot down methods and principles that might work for people on the basis that your method worked for you without putting much emphasis on the fact that your method made you fluently understandable, not the kind of fluent that a lot of people would perhaps expect the word to indicate. Edit: your last comment there was a little uncalled for and below the belt. ;p Edited by mrhenrik on 31 July 2009 at 8:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 38 of 81 31 July 2009 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well said. I'd take this further and say that the problem with every justification I've seen from the natural/direct schools is that they make the assumption that what goes on inside your head is fundamentally different from your interactions with the world. Or more simply that any that they don't see didn't happen. So when they say "no early production", they're ignoring (as you say) internal production. When they say "no translation, not even in your head", they assume that their students are not translating, even though they can't know this for sure. And when they say "no grammar rules", they assume that the learners won't extract the rules and make them into declarative knowledge. My experience suggests that these assumptions are all wrong. I'm sure I've written about this before, but it bears repeating. I was given one hour of direct instruction in Finnish as part of my CELTA course. The teacher came into the room and said something that sounded like "houva paeeva" (there was no writing in this class, so I don't know how to spell it). He said it again and we repeated it. Even though I was trying not to translate, I couldn't help but associate it with "good morning". When we repeated it, he congratulated us with "ehreetaeen houva". Five minutes into the class with no rules and no translation, I could already tell you that Finnish adjectives come before nouns and Finnish adverbs come before adjectives. Of course, that may not be true -- good may be the exception as it is in a number of languages. After the hour was up, we were asked what we knew about Finnish. From around the room we had things about grammatical gender, articles etc etc. So my experience is that people (and not just myself) do translate and do build up declarative knowledge in an immersive environment. It may be a very small sample set, but it is a major concern that these studies rarely address. I would love to see a longitudinal study on changing levels of declarative knowledge among students in the natural-method classroom, because I suspect that it's the people who build up that declarative knowledge early on who succeed. Just because they don't know it at the end doesn't mean that they didn't know it at the start -- it could be like Iversen's Latin and buried away because the brain stops needing it once fluency is achieved. I know that I've forgotten (explicit, declarative) rules in Spanish that I used to know, but I still appear to be able to produce spoken sentences that fit the rules. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 39 of 81 31 July 2009 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Some people are just more humble about their achievements than others. I wouldn't bet against him having better Spanish than you. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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