How Krashen will delay your fluency (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

How Krashen will delay your fluency
Tags: Natural method \| Language Acquisition Theory \| Learning Difficulty \| Fluency
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TheBiscuit
Tetraglot
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Mexico
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Message 65 of 81

03 August 2009 at 4:40am | IP Logged

I've taught in a few places that insist on this forcing the student to speak English approach. Most will have a go but for some it's traumatic, especially when they get told that they're not speaking enough. It's never taken into account that they might not be ready to speak. The student then thinks he's not cut out for learning languages and quits. This is partly the fault of the teacher as they are usually foreigners that only speak English, or worse, foreigners that have been here 5+ years and only speak English. Personally, I'd rather spend the time forcing them to read or listen.
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gbarv
Groupie
Cocos (Keeling) Islands
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Message 66 of 81

03 August 2009 at 7:00am | IP Logged

How Krashen leanrs languages himslef:

Quote:

At this point I would like to include a personal observation about pleasure reading. I have been attempting, over the last few years, to improve my French, largely via pleasure reading, an attempt that has been successful. Mostly through input, I have increased my competence from "advanced beginner" to "high intermediate". I define the intermediate level in the following way: Requiring only some "downshifting" on the part of a native speaker to be able to converse easily, and being able to read most texts without a dictionary, without necessarily knowing every word. I can now read a great deal of French without a dictionary, and even derive real pleasure from it. Being a Monitor user and someone with an intrinsic interest in the structure of language, I occasionally look at grammar books (the ones that gave me so much trouble in high school). I have noticed, to my surprise, that the reading passages at the end of the elementary grammar book still give me trouble! I find them more difficult than "raw", unedited French, French written for native speakers. The reason "pedagogical" passages are more difficult for the intermediate is that they are packed full of subjunctives, conditionnel passé, futur anterieur, and all manner of infrequent vocabulary! in reading through these passages, I found them difficult to understand, and extremely frustrating: the topics were not even of mild interest, and I felt my affective filter going up, as I encountered word after word I did not know. My frustration was further aggravated by the fact that I realized that I was having trouble with a text designed for second year students!

What this experience suggests is that our intermediate students may find real texts, read for interest and pleasure, easier than our pedagogical materials. Moreover, if the above analysis is correct, it may be that free pleasure reading will result in more acquisition of the language.

http://www.sdkrashen.com/Principles_and_Practice/166.html
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Cainntear
Pentaglot
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Message 67 of 81

03 August 2009 at 3:40pm | IP Logged

Ah interesting... even the most vocal proponent of learning by absorption doesn't learn that way. I've never met anyone in person who has learnt a language to any sort of level without some degree of tuition via another language (with the possible exception of a couple of closely related languages).

I have heard convincing studies of people who have done it, but they're the exception, and no-one has determined how they do it, so I can't see how we can expect to replicate it. In all of the cases I've read about, it's either a of shipwreck (no choice) and people who didn't actually set out to learn the language anyway. That's the only part we know for sure about their situation, process or thoughts, and that's something we certainly can't recreate....

Edit: I'm talking about adults here.

Edited by Cainntear on 03 August 2009 at 3:41pm
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Cainntear
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Message 68 of 81

03 August 2009 at 3:44pm | IP Logged

slucido wrote:

reineke wrote:

"There is no substitute for simply spending time using the language. ... Our experience
at FSI indicates unequivocally that the amount of time spent in reading, listening to,
and interacting in the language has a close relationship to the learner’s ability to
learn to use that language professionally."

link

I am surprised. Eventually you have read the article !!

*:O)

I think everyone here accepts that you need time to learn a language. It's just that we think you need other things too. Note that the FSI never abandoned their teaching methods -- they didn't simply value time spent, but quality of instruction too.
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
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Message 69 of 81

03 August 2009 at 4:42pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

slucido wrote:

reineke wrote:

I am surprised. Eventually you have read the article !!

*:O)

You need input and output= interaction with you target language.

You don't need any instruction. Instruction is a kind of method. It can be useful or useless for you.

If your method have input and output, TIME and INTENSITY are the most important factors.

The specific methods are only useful as long as they motivate you to work harder (intensity) and longer (time).

Regarding methods, as long as they have input and output, their capacity to generate MOTIVATION is their most important ingredient.

Sorry, but this discussion about more or less input before output or output from the very beginning is arguing about angels sex.

Do whatever makes you feel good in your target language, but do something.
Keep it simple.

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Jimmymac
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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Message 70 of 81

03 August 2009 at 4:47pm | IP Logged

Oh my god Slucido, we get it. TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY TIME and INTENSITY
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slucido
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Message 71 of 81

03 August 2009 at 7:38pm | IP Logged

Jimmymac wrote:

I am very pleased you agree with me, but you have forgotten MOTIVATION.
This is the basis.
KISS

Edited by slucido on 03 August 2009 at 7:38pm
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Iversen
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Denmark
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Message 72 of 81

04 August 2009 at 11:41am | IP Logged

The main problem with Krashen is that he believes that only 'learning' is learning, and that only 'learning' in his eyes is effective. I have looked through much of the complete book referenced by gbarv and don't see any evidence that he accepts or understands the usefulness of preparing for understanding - for him explicit grammar and wordlists are things that only serve to build a control (the 'monitor') without contributing to the learning process itself. And that's a very narrow conception. Being a conscious language learner doesn't count for much in Krashen's world.

Edited by Iversen on 04 August 2009 at 11:44am

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