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Question about the L-R method | ||
Tags: Listening-Reading (L-R) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Journeyer Triglot Senior Member United States tristan85.blogspot.c Joined 6876 days ago 946 posts - 1110 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, German Studies: Sign Language | Message 17 of 89 24 June 2010 at 7:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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I have heard of methods similar to LR used (and rejected, apparently) by the US Gov. I would like to find more information on this though, as I heard it from a polyglot and graduate of the Defense Language Institute. However, I think there were some differences between the LR described on this forum and how it was used elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised the older method served as some kind of foundation, though, for what we see talked about here.
And I agree RedBeard, that one ought to start with rules or parameters. I think they serve as a guide, and you can base how it works. From there you can decide what is strong and what is lacking. Thank you helping make that clear. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5564 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 18 of 89 24 June 2010 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
The crucial thing for me in the beginning is to get as quickly as possible to the point where I can passively understand 2000-4000 words. The main hurdle during this phase, as Volte and Atamagaii have already pointed out, is the "forgetting curve", and getting enough exposure to the target language to review and consolidate the most frequently occurring words. In my limited experience with Spanish and German, I found that the more I did a day, the higher the return. In this respect, the ratio between the hours I put in and the progress I made seemed to be exponential rather than linear, partly due to the positive impact of fresh contextual words and phrases, and partly due to the exponential nature of reviewing new vocabulary with natural spaced repetition. When I missed a day or two, my passive vocabulary plummeted and suffered for it. Saying that, I also think there's a limit on how long most people can do this type of activity before burning-out. So I took the middle road and did some crazy 10+ hour days but ended up slacking off at the weekend to recharge the batteries and freshen up for the week ahead. In this way I didn't burn out and remained motivated. It's pretty tough however to try and commit to more than 6 hours of L&R or L-R a day on a regular basis, and if you have a full-time demanding job, then this is practically impossible. I'm just simply lucky enough to be a contract worker and can arrange study gaps in between work projects at the moment. In cases where study time is short, courses like Pimsleur and Assimil may turn out to be more appropriate, and a better option for long-term language learners.
I think it's important to get down "some" of the words and phrases before moving on to the next section, and it also really helps to review what you've learnt shortly afterwards so as not to forget too much (lexical density is never too dense in this respect). However, I would definitely warn against trying to understand and assimilate everything, no matter what stage you're at, as this will simply detract from your enjoyment of the book and it could take you from now till doomsday to get through an otherwise great story. This is why I opt for a middle path... Just to explain a little better...I started off following the L-R method introduced by Atamagaii, and this really helped out with German initially. I've also toyed with Professor Arguelles' methods beforehand and learnt a lot from other polyglots such as Khatzumoto along the way. However, I've since experimented with plenty of other techniques and variations (including what I've learned on the job), and eventually found my own special way. I think this is very important, as you really need to find what works best for you in the long run. What I do now still involves listening and reading (L&R), although I've migrated away from reading in my native language whilst listening to the target language (which is central to L-R). I also study section by section, rather than going through the whole book several times. This is just my personal preference, as I just can't really bring myself to repeat a whole novel more than once in a row. I need a much longer period of time to pass before I feel comfortable enough to return to the same story again, and I also need a fascinating untraveled plot to drive me on. The basis of my approach is to read the translation first to grasp the full context, and then follow this up by "intensively" reading through the parallel text whilst listening to and pausing the corresponding audio at the same time (i.e. pausing the audio to swiftly align what I don't understand in the target language text with what I see in the translation). Then I follow this up with counting new words I can now recognise unaided in the text (still listening to the audio simultaneously) using a clicker-counter. This is really a supporting exercise in review and retrieval, and works best shortly after studying a section. Hence I call this part of my approach simply "study-and-click", because that's essentially what I do. The "clicking" part may sound silly or unnecessary, but in essence it gives me a real sense of progression as the passive vocabulary starts to build up and I record my counts. It also seems to maximise the benefit of intensive study. I further take this opportunity to note down any recurring patterns in grammar or pronunciation at the end of a section (if and when they really start to pop up frequently), which proves very useful later on for reference and for building up a natural base for grammar. Timing how long it takes to study a section with pauses against the normal running time of that section (i.e. without pauses) also gives me a rough idea of how my reading speed is progressing and this provides me with further motivation. When I've established an initial base vocabulary through intensive study (where I aim for at least 90% comprehension in an averagely difficult novel), I swiftly migrate to just listening and reading in the target language (e.g. listening and reading Spanish). This is without any pauses or additional supporting study or exercises. Reaching this stage as quickly as possible is my main goal initially, so I can consolidate what I know, get as much ongoing exposure to the language that I can, and align the pronunciation with the text and develop a natural "inner voice" in the target language. If the first stage in developing a passive base vocabulary is intensive L&R, then this next stage is "extensive" L&R. I believe that it's this next stage that really helps to develop that "inner voice" in the target language, which I find invaluable later on when engaged in conversations, and which guides me in pronouncing and hearing words correctly, as well as being able to read and write more comfortably in natural syntax. It's also cool to say to somebody that you've already read and understood the gist of several books in the target language without a dictionary, and maybe even understood plenty of the details. These stages in L&R don't get you all the way. Far from it, it's just the beginning. But the main task at this stage is to get yourself to a good enough level where you can listen and read naturally, and get the gist unaided, and then learn to activate this by talking to people in the language later, and through reading and writing about interesting selected topics. Wow...well that was more than I meant to write, so apologies for the essay, but I hope that in all this I've been able to help a little. The key thing to remember here, I believe, is to try out different things and discover what works best personally for you. We're all very different and there's no magic method that suits all at the end of the day. And if you're going to go down the L-R or L&R road, then I'd seriously recommend using parallel texts with good quality audiobooks (i.e. you enjoy the narrator's voice and style). You also really need to fall in love with what you're reading, as you'll want your 120+ hours to be as fun and enjoyable as possible for real learning to take place. So much so, that learning to internalise a new language really just becomes a by-product of enjoying a damn good story. :) Edited by Teango on 24 June 2010 at 1:03pm 19 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sandman Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5416 days ago 168 posts - 389 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Japanese | Message 19 of 89 24 June 2010 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've also been coming to the realization that getting to a roughly 3000 言葉 vocabulary (you stated 2000-4000) as quickly as possible (while still maintaining bare minimum listening and contextual requirements for the 言葉s) may be one of the most efficient ways of going about things in the long-run.
I've been thinking about what was stated to be the real shortcomings of the L-R method, namely the need for long hours of input to overcome the forgetting curve problem, and I'm wondering about to what degree this "forgetting curve" problem could be worked around by using shorter texts in the initial stages, even taking things to the true extremes of a "1 sentence L-R cycle" for absolute pure beginners, and then moving it to "1 paragraph L-R cycle", then a "1 page L-R cycle", then 1 chapter, and then entire books, etc. If the method itself is really the best way to go about things, then merely tightening the cycles (to extremes of 1 sentence levels initially even) would work for making shorter, and more reasonable, L-R sessions feasible. The "1 sentence", "1 paragraph", or "1 page" cycle of course would be repeated many times during a single studying session, でも 8 hours would be unnecessary as you can work things out to ensure an appropriate amount of repetition for whatever your studying sessions happen to be. As the vocabulary starts to build up you'd switch to longer text cycles, etc. The main idea basically being to keep your new L-R material small enough so that your learning sessions (however long they may be) would be sufficiently long to provide appropriate reinforcement and repetition. It seems that much of the Assimil use that people find so useful is little more than a version of this "Sandman's Short-Cycled L-R method" as I have begun vigorously and repeatedly calling it in my bathroom mirror, while sucking on my nth beer. In some versions of interpreting Assimil, it is basically pounding through individual sentences, and the 12-14 sentence chapters, using the old "textbook" version of the L-R method of L2-L2, L2-L1, and shadowing (and going back to translate from native to target later on) all with the small chunks that a Short-Cycled L-R would require, rather than using the full books of text of the traditional method. Once sufficient vocabulary and grammar instincts were built up, it would seem reasonable to then use the same methods でも on longer and longer materials, eventually working one's way up to a more traditional version of the L-R method. Edited by Sandman on 24 June 2010 at 1:23pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5564 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 20 of 89 24 June 2010 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"Exposure" is one of the key ingredients here I think (i.e. words per minute). In the initial stages it's largely about 1) the number of words you can prime, learn and consolidate in context in the limited amount of time given, and 2) the focus, joy and motivation to continue doing this. Most of the time my audiobooks seemed to be divided into roughly 5 minute sections, which worked out quite well, but you should experiment and find out what slice of the text works best for you.
Having both intensive and extensive L&R seems to be a nice balance though. And with focus more on the length of a study session rather than the length of text and audio, you can try and make sure you take regular breaks and optimise the time you do put in. What I tend to do instead of tightening the cycles is change the reading level. I'd recommend working with introductory coursebooks and guided materials first, especially if the target language is totally different to your own native language and very opaque, and then ideally progress through easier stories like "The Little Prince" and "Harry Potter" before tackling tougher texts. I recall Cervantes' Don Quijote in Spanish and anything by Thomas Mann in German being far beyond my level and way too difficult. It wasn't pleasant trying to L&R with these texts and it really put me off in the beginning; but life became more productive and enjoyable as soon as I moved over to easier texts that were only just slightly beyond my level (i.e. i+1) and progressed from there. Edited by Teango on 24 June 2010 at 1:59pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sandman Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5416 days ago 168 posts - 389 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Japanese | Message 21 of 89 26 June 2010 at 9:48am | IP Logged | |||||
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"What I tend to do instead of tightening the cycles is change the reading level"
Yeah, that's another good point also. Simplifying the reading levels. In retrospect that's something we probably all do, and would make L-R'ing much more managable in the early stages. I haven't been able to give myself up to a pure L-R type method in Japanese (I am using it in Spanish now to see it's effect on a language with an already developed vocabulary, and have been somewhat shocked how even 10 hours boosted my listening. I think my "internal" voice had gotten a bit off kilter), although I know it'd drastically speed up my word exposure. There's something about SRS'ing every new word, and tossing in some formal grammar work, that makes things more tangible for me. I think I find not being able to empirically measure my progress in a fairly exact way very unsettling. In the grand scheme of things though, I'm still trying to discern if those things are an inefficiency since a lot of that maybe internalized through work we HAVE to do anyway while listening, speaking, etc. There's some sort of formula to weigh pure L-R'ing exposure against intensive training, but I don't have enough L-R experience to know what it is. Does intensively pounding things in your head off the bat speed things up enough to make up for the time invested, or does it have too high of a time cost to outstrip the benefits of just soaking things up passively and getting extra listening practice? As of yet, I don't know. For now I've pretty much settled on an every new vocab SRS entry, short cycle L-R with texts I can handle (Assimil lessons currently, graduated readers later), until I hit my 3000 or so vocab target. At that point shifting toward L-R with real texts and then some various output methods. I haven't decided if it's the most efficient yet though. Anyone else feel that it may take 8 or 9 languages to get your methods down pat? :P Edited by Sandman on 26 June 2010 at 10:15am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5564 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 22 of 89 26 June 2010 at 11:35am | IP Logged | |||||
I know just what you mean. ;) But you're absolutely right - experimenting with different methods and variations until you find what personally clicks is the way to go. My next big challenge is going to be Russian, which I hope will prove a really good test of the approach I've established so far. However I'm sure languages like Japanese and Irish will reveal even more interesting twists and turns further down that road to polyglottery... Edited by Teango on 26 June 2010 at 11:36am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| JPike1028 Triglot Senior Member United States piketransitions Joined 5405 days ago 297 posts - 337 votes Speaks: English*, French, Italian Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Portuguese, Czech | Message 23 of 89 09 July 2010 at 5:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm tagging a question on to this thread rather than starting a new one since my question deals with L-R. In preparation for my Russian session coming up in a few months I wanted to ask how the different script is approached in L-R? I have knowledge of Cyrillic and can pronounce the words mostly correctly upon looking at them, but speed is an issue. In a new script does one just go through and pray that the brain eventually makes the connection or should I invest some time in really solidifying being able to just look at a Cyrillic word and knowing how to pronounce it second nature like I do with any of my other languages?
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6957 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 24 of 89 09 July 2010 at 5:44am | IP Logged | |||||
I just started doing the same with Japanese yesterday, but only for about four hours. I went straight to step 3 (L1 text, L2 audio). I actually felt that it wasn't as helpful as the L2 text-L2 audio I had done in the past: it made me start to 'see' English text in my mind's eye while speaking Japanese, whereas I would see kanji while speaking Japanese before. Again, my experience with this step is limited to only a few hours, but it seems to me that while this step would be great for beginner level languages, it is more likely to encourage mental translating (as opposed to monolingual thought) for languages in which your initial proficiency is higher. Is this the same part of the system you tried for Spanish? In what way could you feel it improve your listening? Since we're talking about tweaking the system to suit our own needs, I'm wondering what kind of adjustments people have found work well for non-beginner level languages. Edited by Lucky Charms on 09 July 2010 at 5:45am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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